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RE: [bolger] filleting materials

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  • Bill Kreamer
    The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain the geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint. For a gunned
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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      The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain the
      geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint.
      For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it cure
      for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill



      -----Original Message-----
      From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@...]
      Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] filleting materials



      I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
      adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
      seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
      painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
      screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
      building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
      to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
      would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
      boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
      used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
      seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
      that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
      still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
      some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
      that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
      with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
      it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
      even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.

      Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
      is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
      area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
      resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
      fillet. So, would this method work?

      1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
      2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
      type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
      seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
      3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.

      My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
      inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
      little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
      kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
      these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
      but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
      more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
      epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
      filleting material is?

      Thanks for any suggestions!





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      Bolger rules!!!
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      Fax: (978) 282-1349
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nels
      If you compare stitch and glue to wood chine construction, my impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a replacement for a chine log, as
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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        If you compare stitch and glue to wood chine construction, my
        impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a
        replacement for a chine log, as well as provide a coved suface for
        the tape to lie on. The tape provides the attachment surface for the
        epoxy. And the epoxy replaces the nails and sealant in the all wood
        scenario.

        So whatever you use for the fillet is equivalent to how good the wood
        is you use for chine logs. You want wood that holds the intended
        shape of the hull, and allows some flexibility if impacted by an
        object and can take the fastenings without splitting and not fall
        apart too soon.

        The other thing to consider is the capatability of the fasteners to
        the wood and the longevity in that environment that it has to exist
        in.

        Stitch and glue has some real advantages over the plain wood
        construction. It is more forgiving of close fit, is easier to clean
        and is not prone to rot, just to name a few.

        But the main purpose is to hold the hull together in about the same
        way as the older way of using chine logs and battens etc.

        Otherwise you could use jam and peanut butter for fillets perhaps?

        Easier to remove from the fingers:-)

        Nels


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
        > The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain
        the
        > geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the
        joint.
        > For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it
        cure
        > for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@y...]
        > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [bolger] filleting materials
        >
        >
        >
        > I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
        > adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
        > seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
        > painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
        > screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
        > building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's
        going
        > to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
        > would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
        > boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
        > used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
        > seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
        > that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun
        it's
        > still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
        > some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
        > that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
        > with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and
        pressed
        > it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was
        very
        > even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
        >
        > Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
        > is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has
        more
        > area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened
        epoxy
        > resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
        > fillet. So, would this method work?
        >
        > 1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
        > 2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
        > type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into
        the
        > seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
        > 3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
        >
        > My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
        > inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
        > little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
        > kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
        > these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of
        strength...
        > but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
        > more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as
        the
        > epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
        > filleting material is?
        >
        > Thanks for any suggestions!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        M=267637.4116719.5338353.1261774/D=egrou
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        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
        posts
        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
        > Fax: (978) 282-1349
        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... A year ago I used the el cheapo painter s caulk to fill gaps between deck beams and the plywood deck on portions of my Micro Navigator. [It saved me the
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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          --- Lincoln Ross wrote:
          >... caulk ... I would consider that
          > approximately equivalent to ... air

          A year ago I used the el cheapo
          painter's caulk to fill gaps between
          deck beams and the plywood deck
          on portions of my Micro Navigator.
          [It saved me the trouble of cutting
          and fitting wood shims.]

          I just tested the caulk, [poked it
          with a screw driver]. The year
          old hardened caulk is about the
          same as you would expect with
          hardened Plaster of Paris. You
          can scratch it, but it is tight.

          I dare say, it resists scratches and
          chips better than the adjacent wood.

          I agree epoxy is better, but how
          much does 'better' help, if it is
          attached to wood?

          Caulk is stronger than air.
        • Lincoln Ross
          If I was filleting with caulk instead of epoxy I would consider that approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I d use extra layers of glass to make
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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            If I was filleting with caulk instead of epoxy I would consider that
            approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I'd use extra layers
            of glass to make sure the fillet didn't buckle. Seems to me a stronger
            fillet material would be worthwhile. I don't know how strong the fillet
            material needs to be but my intuition says a certain number of
            microballoons could be used to make things cheaper and lighter without
            seam failure.
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