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filleting materials

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  • rowingmomma
    I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in seams. That got me to
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 31, 2003
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      I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
      adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
      seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
      painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
      screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
      building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
      to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
      would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
      boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
      used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
      seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
      that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
      still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
      some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
      that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
      with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
      it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
      even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.

      Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
      is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
      area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
      resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
      fillet. So, would this method work?

      1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
      2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
      type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
      seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
      3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.

      My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
      inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
      little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
      kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
      these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
      but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
      more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
      epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
      filleting material is?

      Thanks for any suggestions!
    • Nels
      Hi, You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs made of 1 square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then just tape the outer
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 31, 2003
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        Hi,

        You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs
        made of 1" square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then just
        tape the outer chines. No caulking, no filleting, no mess.

        Nels

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "rowingmomma" <rowingmomma@y...> wrote:
        > I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
        > adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
        > seams.
      • fritzf@alaska.net
        I agree with Nels here about the simplicity of chine logs vs fillets - especially if kids are involved. While my PL fillets are still holding up fine, I now
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 31, 2003
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          I agree with Nels here about the simplicity of chine logs vs fillets - especially if kids are involved. While my PL fillets are still holding up fine, I now use chine logs on all my projects with kids. Way less mess, and the kids really enjoy the nailing part. Helps if they can nail on the chine log flat on the floor (easier for them). With the right stock dimensions this all works fine and doesn't snap when you later bend it around the molds (haven't had a snap yet). If you are building small and lightweight the chine logs can be a tad under 1 x 2 stock - somewhere between 5/8 and 3/4 thickness has been about right for me, depending on what type of wood you have on hand, and side curvature of your project. Prebore the plywood with a fine bit, use 3/4 ringnails, have the kids wear safety glasses and let them pound away and have fun! Way better than trying to de-goop the kids and explain to parents why their inevitably PL-soaked skin is going to be all black for a few days
          !

          --Fritz

          P.S. Titebond II has worked fine for me with kid projects, attaching chine logs to sides, when backed with the ringnails. I still have the kids use PL for attaching the bottoms - that bottom project is not so goopy as putting the chine logs on the sides, and the seal is a little more critical there.


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Nels <arvent@...>
          Date: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:08 pm
          Subject: [bolger] Re: filleting materials

          > Hi,
          >
          > You can save money by glueing and ring-nailing in small chine logs
          > made of 1" square strips of a flexible wood - like cedar. Then
          > just
          > tape the outer chines. No caulking, no filleting, no mess.
          >
          > Nels
          >
          >
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... I, too, use plain old painter s caulk in non-critical adhesive areas. Most recently, to adhere the top plywood laminate on the roof of my Micro Navigator,
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 31, 2003
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            --- rowingmomma wrote:
            > plain old painter's caulk

            I, too, use plain old painter's caulk
            in non-critical adhesive areas.

            Most recently, to adhere the top
            plywood laminate on the roof of
            my Micro Navigator, also to adhere
            some trim shim laminate. Testing
            some I put down a year ago, it seems
            strong enough and the tube does say
            "25 years", easy clean up, and the
            price is right!
          • Bill Kreamer
            The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain the geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint. For a gunned
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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              The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain the
              geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the joint.
              For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it cure
              for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill



              -----Original Message-----
              From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@...]
              Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] filleting materials



              I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
              adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
              seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
              painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
              screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
              building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's going
              to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
              would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
              boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
              used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
              seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
              that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun it's
              still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
              some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
              that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
              with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and pressed
              it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was very
              even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.

              Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
              is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has more
              area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened epoxy
              resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
              fillet. So, would this method work?

              1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
              2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
              type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into the
              seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
              3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.

              My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
              inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
              little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
              kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
              these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of strength...
              but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
              more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as the
              epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
              filleting material is?

              Thanks for any suggestions!





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              Bolger rules!!!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
              Fax: (978) 282-1349
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nels
              If you compare stitch and glue to wood chine construction, my impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a replacement for a chine log, as
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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                If you compare stitch and glue to wood chine construction, my
                impression is that the purpose of the fillet is to serve as a
                replacement for a chine log, as well as provide a coved suface for
                the tape to lie on. The tape provides the attachment surface for the
                epoxy. And the epoxy replaces the nails and sealant in the all wood
                scenario.

                So whatever you use for the fillet is equivalent to how good the wood
                is you use for chine logs. You want wood that holds the intended
                shape of the hull, and allows some flexibility if impacted by an
                object and can take the fastenings without splitting and not fall
                apart too soon.

                The other thing to consider is the capatability of the fasteners to
                the wood and the longevity in that environment that it has to exist
                in.

                Stitch and glue has some real advantages over the plain wood
                construction. It is more forgiving of close fit, is easier to clean
                and is not prone to rot, just to name a few.

                But the main purpose is to hold the hull together in about the same
                way as the older way of using chine logs and battens etc.

                Otherwise you could use jam and peanut butter for fillets perhaps?

                Easier to remove from the fingers:-)

                Nels


                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:
                > The fillet core needs to be relatively incompressible to maintain
                the
                > geometry of the fiberglass and the rigidity (stiffness) of the
                joint.
                > For a gunned material, I'd stick with the PL. Be sure to let it
                cure
                > for a day and a half before glassing. - Bill
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: rowingmomma [mailto:rowingmomma@y...]
                > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:39 PM
                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [bolger] filleting materials
                >
                >
                >
                > I read with fascination the discussion about using PL Premium as an
                > adhesive, and someone mentioned using it as a filleting material in
                > seams. That got me to thinking: why couldn't I use just plain old
                > painter's caulk as a filleting material? Before everyone starts
                > screaming about it being too weak, hear me out. First, the boat I'm
                > building is just a little (12-foot) flat-bottomed pirogue that's
                going
                > to be used by children weighing under 80 lbs. The seams in question
                > would be the one between the bottom and the sides. I'm building the
                > boat out of 1/4 inch plywood. I already built an identical boat. I
                > used 4-inch fiberglass tape on both the inside and outside of the
                > seams. I used epoxy thickened with wood flour for the fillets. But
                > that's expensive and messy. Even if you put it in a caulking gun
                it's
                > still messy. I thought epoxy putty might be a good idea, and I tried
                > some of that (the type used for repairs... a kind of two part dough
                > that you work together with your hands. It was really nice to work
                > with because I just made it into long ropes with my hands and
                pressed
                > it into the seams and smoothed it out... it looked great and was
                very
                > even and didn't need sanding. But, very expensive.
                >
                > Anyway, I thought I had read that the purpose of this type of fillet
                > is just to provide a radiused surface so that the fiberglass has
                more
                > area to adhere to. And that the strength came from the hardened
                epoxy
                > resin and fiberglass on both sides of the seam, not the underlying
                > fillet. So, would this method work?
                >
                > 1) put a first layer of epoxy on the plywood seam and let it dry.
                > 2) get a caulking gun and some caulk (open to suggestions as to what
                > type, but I'm thinking of something cheap) and squeeze a bead into
                the
                > seam, and then smooth it into a nice fillet shape and let it dry.
                > 3) put down the fiberglass tape and wet out with epoxy as usual.
                >
                > My main point here is that I'm looking for something easy and
                > inexpensive. (I know that doing it the traditional way on such a
                > little boat isn't all that expensive... but half of the neighborhood
                > kids want one of their own, so I think I'm going to make a lot of
                > these little boats!) And while I don't need a whole lot of
                strength...
                > but I'm interested in whether the idea would work even if I did need
                > more strength. I guess the root of my question is this: as long as
                the
                > epoxy resin sticks to it, does it really matter how strong the
                > filleting material is?
                >
                > Thanks for any suggestions!
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bruce Hallman
                ... A year ago I used the el cheapo painter s caulk to fill gaps between deck beams and the plywood deck on portions of my Micro Navigator. [It saved me the
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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                  --- Lincoln Ross wrote:
                  >... caulk ... I would consider that
                  > approximately equivalent to ... air

                  A year ago I used the el cheapo
                  painter's caulk to fill gaps between
                  deck beams and the plywood deck
                  on portions of my Micro Navigator.
                  [It saved me the trouble of cutting
                  and fitting wood shims.]

                  I just tested the caulk, [poked it
                  with a screw driver]. The year
                  old hardened caulk is about the
                  same as you would expect with
                  hardened Plaster of Paris. You
                  can scratch it, but it is tight.

                  I dare say, it resists scratches and
                  chips better than the adjacent wood.

                  I agree epoxy is better, but how
                  much does 'better' help, if it is
                  attached to wood?

                  Caulk is stronger than air.
                • Lincoln Ross
                  If I was filleting with caulk instead of epoxy I would consider that approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I d use extra layers of glass to make
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 1, 2003
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                    If I was filleting with caulk instead of epoxy I would consider that
                    approximately equivalent to filleting with air, so I'd use extra layers
                    of glass to make sure the fillet didn't buckle. Seems to me a stronger
                    fillet material would be worthwhile. I don't know how strong the fillet
                    material needs to be but my intuition says a certain number of
                    microballoons could be used to make things cheaper and lighter without
                    seam failure.
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