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Re: [bolger] Boat Economics

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... Yes. Restated, home built boats almost always (re-)sell for less than the cost of materials, not to mention the cost of labor. A choice to build a boat
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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      > I am just telling the truth here

      Yes.

      Restated, home built boats almost
      always (re-)sell for less than the
      cost of materials, not to mention the
      cost of labor.

      A choice to build a boat should be
      for the reason that building boats
      is fun!

      More fun, I argue, if you include the
      sport of seeing how cheap you can be!

      Another reason to build you own boat
      is that you can own a unique boat, out
      of the ordinary, a boat that cannot be
      bought, unique, a monument!

      Superbrick!

      or Puffer

      or Eeeek!

      or Monhegan

      or Folding Schooner

      or Illinois

      or Yonder

      or I60
    • Mi'ki
      The best reason to build your own is the fun of it, price has nothing to do with , the cost will always be more than you planned, because things change as you
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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        The best reason to build your own is the fun of it, price has nothing to do with , the cost will always be more than you planned, because things change as you go along. The fourteen foot new Peep hen with trailer cost over ten thousand dollars, when finished out some goodies like engine that comes to 800 dollars a foot. Think of what you build for that kind of money.


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      • Sam Glasscock
        Lots of good points in this post. The build v. restore question is an interesting one. The yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty year
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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          Lots of good points in this post. The build v.
          restore question is an interesting one. The yards
          (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty
          year old fiberglass production boats begging for
          owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
          want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
          because they want to build a boat, those old glass
          hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
          you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
          instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
          consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
          fixxed it up with little time or expense, and I could
          get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
          house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
          plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
          left in thier fierce old plastic hearts.
          indeed provide a more economical boat than buildin
          When you start dreaming
          > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF
          > money and time are
          > considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
          > The fiberglass
          > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
          > coasts are not to be
          > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
          > riggings and
          > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
          > you can build, and
          > you spend your time sailing rather than building.
          >

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        • Sam Glasscock
          Lots of good points in your post. The build v. restore question is always an interesting one. The yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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            Lots of good points in your post. The build v.
            restore question is always an interesting one. The
            yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
            thirty-year-old fiberglass production boats begging
            for owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
            want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
            because they want to build a boat, those old glass
            hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
            you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
            instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
            consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
            fixed it up, investing little time or expense, and I
            could get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
            house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
            plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
            left in their fierce old plastic hearts.
            What if you want a glass cabin cat ketch that has
            leeboards and draws less than a foot? Or a
            thirty-foot shallow draft cruiser designed to plane
            with a fifty horse outboard? Or a twenty-five foot
            pulling boat? There ain't any lying in the weeds and
            yards around here, I've looked A lot of us building
            big boats do it (at least in part) because the market
            (as it exists now and as it was thirty years ago)
            isn't producing the boats we want. So I'd say if want
            to build a boat for its own sake, build it. If you
            want to get on the water cheap and are looking for
            something produced of indestructible 'glass by the
            thousands thirty years ago, buy or beg one , and fix
            it up (that can be a lot of fun, too). But if you
            really want something that will do what, say, a
            Birdwatcher or Windermere will, and you can't afford
            to have one built professionally, better break out
            the circular saw and the glue pot. Sam

            > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF
            > money and time are
            > considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
            > The fiberglass
            > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
            > coasts are not to be
            > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
            > riggings and
            > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
            > you can build, and
            > you spend your time sailing rather than building.
            >

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          • Susan Davis
            ... It s all about the I60. :-) -- Susan Davis
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
              >
              > or I60

              It's all about the I60. :-)

              --
              Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
            • Richard Spelling
              ... From: Jim Goeckermann To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
                To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
                Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                > Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
                > boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
                > charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
                > to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
                > "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
                > are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
                > designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
                > race http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
                > These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
                > the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
                > building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
                > another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                > considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                > you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                > just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
                > the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
                > marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
                > last summer: http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/ On the other hand, the
                > smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
                > just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
                > about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
                > Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
                > a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
                > the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
                > fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Cockerham John H CONT KPWA
                I must agree with Jim Goeckermann about older factory boats being a great deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for $2800.00.
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                  I must agree with Jim Goeckermann about older factory boats being a great
                  deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for
                  $2800.00. The boat is in great condition and fully equipped. I took a
                  weeklong cruise to the San Juan Islands with the local San Juan club this
                  summer and I raced with the fleet this past Saturday. If I were building
                  from scratch it would be another year or two before I could sail. I still
                  have the desire to build a small cruising boat. Right know I am leaning
                  towards a Bolger Micro Navigator. The problem is my desires keep changing.
                  I have plans at home for Steve Redmond's Elver, Glen-L's banks dory Lucky
                  Pierre, the Tugboat Bufflehead by Tom MacNaughton and at least a couple of
                  more I'd have to dig out of my filing cabinet. I love dreaming about
                  building boats, but the reality is I am really sailing my old Fiberglas San
                  Juan 21 and enjoying every minute of it.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jim Goeckermann [mailto:jim@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:52 AM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                  Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
                  boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
                  charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
                  to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
                  "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
                  are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
                  designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
                  race http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
                  <http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/>
                  These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
                  the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
                  building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
                  another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                  of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                  considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                  boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                  overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                  trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                  you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                  just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
                  the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
                  marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
                  last summer: http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/ <http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/>
                  On the other hand, the
                  smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
                  just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
                  about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
                  Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
                  a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
                  the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
                  fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG




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                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                  (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • craig o'donnell
                  ... All correct, however, the used daysailer market is conceptually very limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions. So if you want something
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                    >another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                    >of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                    >considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                    >boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                    >overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                    >trailer!)

                    All correct, however, the used daysailer market is conceptually very
                    limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.

                    So if you want something different you've gotta build one. If you
                    want a Birdwatcher, you'll have to build one.

                    If you want a power sharpie, you'll have to build one. If you want a
                    sailing canoe, you MIGHT have to build one (there are some commercial
                    hulls which can be adapted). If you want a scow (not racing scow,
                    garvey or scow shaped boat) you'll have to build one.

                    And so on.
                    --
                    Craig O'Donnell
                    Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                    <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                    The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                    The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                    Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                    American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                    Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                    _________________________________

                    -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                    -- Macintosh kinda guy
                    Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                    _________________________________
                    ---
                    [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
                  • Richard Spelling
                    Exactly. When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however, that convinced me
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                      Exactly.

                      When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however,
                      that convinced me to buy.

                      1) I would be getting a unique boat.
                      2) I enjoy building things more than sailing boats
                      3) It takes me 15 minute to go from arriving at the boat ramp to sailing away.
                      4) Since I built it, there is NOTHING on the boat I can't fix.
                      5) Very few FG boats in the 20ft range can be beached.

                      That said, the economics of the older fiberglass boats is still attractive. Watch out for delaminated decking, and rotting plywood
                      bulkheads.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
                      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
                      Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                      >> another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                      > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                      > considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                      > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                      > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                      > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                      > you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                    • pvanderwaart
                      ... I agree, with the exception of emphasis. I would say that the above 20 market is more uniform in boat type than is the market for smaller boats. Most of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                        > The used daysailer market is conceptually very
                        > limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.

                        I agree, with the exception of emphasis. I would say that the above
                        20' market is more uniform in boat type than is the market for
                        smaller boats. Most of the variety is the legacy of 40 years of
                        design development, Alberg through Farr. Yawls and schooners are all
                        but extinct, and ketches seem to be rarer every year (not that I want
                        a ketch, you understand). Aside from a few English imports, there's
                        not a gaffer to be had, except for the 20-25' Cape Cod cats.

                        At just about every point in the last quarter century, there has been
                        one firm or another producing a cat ketch in cruising boat size, but
                        I don't know of one in the business right now.

                        There IS variety of course. Island Packet and J-boats are not really
                        in competition with each other, and neither are Pacific Seacraft and
                        Catalina.

                        Peter
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