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Boat Economics

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  • Jim Goeckermann
    Great comments lately on the actual vs. dreamer s cost of boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is charming, the chuckles from the
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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      Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
      boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
      charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
      to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
      "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
      are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
      designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
      race http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
      These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
      the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
      building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
      another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
      of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
      considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
      boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
      overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
      trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
      you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
      just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
      the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
      marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
      last summer: http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/ On the other hand, the
      smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
      just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
      about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
      Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
      a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
      the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
      fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... Yes. Restated, home built boats almost always (re-)sell for less than the cost of materials, not to mention the cost of labor. A choice to build a boat
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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        > I am just telling the truth here

        Yes.

        Restated, home built boats almost
        always (re-)sell for less than the
        cost of materials, not to mention the
        cost of labor.

        A choice to build a boat should be
        for the reason that building boats
        is fun!

        More fun, I argue, if you include the
        sport of seeing how cheap you can be!

        Another reason to build you own boat
        is that you can own a unique boat, out
        of the ordinary, a boat that cannot be
        bought, unique, a monument!

        Superbrick!

        or Puffer

        or Eeeek!

        or Monhegan

        or Folding Schooner

        or Illinois

        or Yonder

        or I60
      • Mi'ki
        The best reason to build your own is the fun of it, price has nothing to do with , the cost will always be more than you planned, because things change as you
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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          The best reason to build your own is the fun of it, price has nothing to do with , the cost will always be more than you planned, because things change as you go along. The fourteen foot new Peep hen with trailer cost over ten thousand dollars, when finished out some goodies like engine that comes to 800 dollars a foot. Think of what you build for that kind of money.


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        • Sam Glasscock
          Lots of good points in this post. The build v. restore question is an interesting one. The yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty year
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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            Lots of good points in this post. The build v.
            restore question is an interesting one. The yards
            (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of thirty
            year old fiberglass production boats begging for
            owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
            want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
            because they want to build a boat, those old glass
            hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
            you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
            instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
            consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
            fixxed it up with little time or expense, and I could
            get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
            house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
            plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
            left in thier fierce old plastic hearts.
            indeed provide a more economical boat than buildin
            When you start dreaming
            > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF
            > money and time are
            > considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
            > The fiberglass
            > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
            > coasts are not to be
            > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
            > riggings and
            > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
            > you can build, and
            > you spend your time sailing rather than building.
            >

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          • Sam Glasscock
            Lots of good points in your post. The build v. restore question is always an interesting one. The yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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              Lots of good points in your post. The build v.
              restore question is always an interesting one. The
              yards (back, boat and junk) are, as you say, full of
              thirty-year-old fiberglass production boats begging
              for owners. Putting aside the factor that some people
              want to build a boat not because they want a boat, but
              because they want to build a boat, those old glass
              hulls can indeed provide a tremendous bargain, IF what
              you want is a 1970's production boat hull. For
              instance, when I wanted a runabout, I did not even
              consider building one. I got an old MFG hull and
              fixed it up, investing little time or expense, and I
              could get 2 dozen more hulls like it with a mile of my
              house. Same if I wanted a keel sloop--there are
              plenty of old one around with decades of tough use
              left in their fierce old plastic hearts.
              What if you want a glass cabin cat ketch that has
              leeboards and draws less than a foot? Or a
              thirty-foot shallow draft cruiser designed to plane
              with a fifty horse outboard? Or a twenty-five foot
              pulling boat? There ain't any lying in the weeds and
              yards around here, I've looked A lot of us building
              big boats do it (at least in part) because the market
              (as it exists now and as it was thirty years ago)
              isn't producing the boats we want. So I'd say if want
              to build a boat for its own sake, build it. If you
              want to get on the water cheap and are looking for
              something produced of indestructible 'glass by the
              thousands thirty years ago, buy or beg one , and fix
              it up (that can be a lot of fun, too). But if you
              really want something that will do what, say, a
              Birdwatcher or Windermere will, and you can't afford
              to have one built professionally, better break out
              the circular saw and the glue pot. Sam

              > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF
              > money and time are
              > considerations, there is another avenue to consider.
              > The fiberglass
              > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both
              > coasts are not to be
              > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the
              > riggings and
              > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything
              > you can build, and
              > you spend your time sailing rather than building.
              >

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              The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
              http://shopping.yahoo.com
            • Susan Davis
              ... It s all about the I60. :-) -- Susan Davis
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 4, 2003
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                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
                >
                > or I60

                It's all about the I60. :-)

                --
                Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
              • Richard Spelling
                ... From: Jim Goeckermann To: Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
                  To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
                  Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                  > Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
                  > boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
                  > charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
                  > to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
                  > "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
                  > are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
                  > designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
                  > race http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
                  > These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
                  > the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
                  > building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
                  > another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                  > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                  > considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                  > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                  > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                  > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                  > you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                  > just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
                  > the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
                  > marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
                  > last summer: http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/ On the other hand, the
                  > smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
                  > just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
                  > about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
                  > Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
                  > a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
                  > the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
                  > fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Bolger rules!!!
                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Cockerham John H CONT KPWA
                  I must agree with Jim Goeckermann about older factory boats being a great deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for $2800.00.
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                    I must agree with Jim Goeckermann about older factory boats being a great
                    deal. Last December I purchased a San Juan 21 with trailer and motor for
                    $2800.00. The boat is in great condition and fully equipped. I took a
                    weeklong cruise to the San Juan Islands with the local San Juan club this
                    summer and I raced with the fleet this past Saturday. If I were building
                    from scratch it would be another year or two before I could sail. I still
                    have the desire to build a small cruising boat. Right know I am leaning
                    towards a Bolger Micro Navigator. The problem is my desires keep changing.
                    I have plans at home for Steve Redmond's Elver, Glen-L's banks dory Lucky
                    Pierre, the Tugboat Bufflehead by Tom MacNaughton and at least a couple of
                    more I'd have to dig out of my filing cabinet. I love dreaming about
                    building boats, but the reality is I am really sailing my old Fiberglas San
                    Juan 21 and enjoying every minute of it.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Jim Goeckermann [mailto:jim@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 8:52 AM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                    Great comments lately on the "actual" vs. "dreamer's" cost of
                    boatbuilding. Peter, I always enjoy your posts - the integrity is
                    charming, the chuckles from the signatures a bonus (Could you be related
                    to "Dock Dog" on the trailer sailor site?). At the risk of offending the
                    "gotta be wood" gang, here are a few thoughts for the newer members who
                    are going to sleep each night with an ever shuffling pile of possible
                    designs battling it out. Perhaps you caught Shorty's recent $50 boat
                    race http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/
                    <http://www.shortypen.com/events/conroe6/>
                    These quick and dirty boats are great fun. Somewhere up the ladder is
                    the realistic attitudes of Jim Michalak who makes no bones about
                    building it reasonably and getting it on the water. However, he offered
                    another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                    of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                    considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                    boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                    overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                    trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                    you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                    just telling the truth here for those who need a little cold water in
                    the face before they bite off a project that strains the wallet, the
                    marriage, and the sanity. (Here is a little example of one I worked on
                    last summer: http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/ <http://www.sisqtel.net/~jim/>
                    On the other hand, the
                    smaller craft that can be put together by the home builder can provide
                    just as much (sometimes MORE) fun. Lastly, if you are really serious
                    about "going somewhere" with your boat, a little piece of wisdom from
                    Mr. Bolger. MOST people would be better served by a motor cruiser towing
                    a sporty sailing dinghy. Buy the bigger boat, sail or power, build
                    the piccup pram or other sailboat. Just an option to consider,
                    fellas.... now douse those flame-throwers. Be of good cheer, JimG




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                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                    (978) 282-1349
                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                    <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • craig o'donnell
                    ... All correct, however, the used daysailer market is conceptually very limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions. So if you want something
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                      >another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                      >of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                      >considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                      >boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                      >overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                      >trailer!)

                      All correct, however, the used daysailer market is conceptually very
                      limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.

                      So if you want something different you've gotta build one. If you
                      want a Birdwatcher, you'll have to build one.

                      If you want a power sharpie, you'll have to build one. If you want a
                      sailing canoe, you MIGHT have to build one (there are some commercial
                      hulls which can be adapted). If you want a scow (not racing scow,
                      garvey or scow shaped boat) you'll have to build one.

                      And so on.
                      --
                      Craig O'Donnell
                      Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                      <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                      The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                      The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                      Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                      American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                      Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                      _________________________________

                      -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                      -- Macintosh kinda guy
                      Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                      _________________________________
                      ---
                      [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
                    • Richard Spelling
                      Exactly. When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however, that convinced me
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                        Exactly.

                        When I went to build my 20ft Chebacco, I seriously looked at similar boats in that size range. There were several factors, however,
                        that convinced me to buy.

                        1) I would be getting a unique boat.
                        2) I enjoy building things more than sailing boats
                        3) It takes me 15 minute to go from arriving at the boat ramp to sailing away.
                        4) Since I built it, there is NOTHING on the boat I can't fix.
                        5) Very few FG boats in the 20ft range can be beached.

                        That said, the economics of the older fiberglass boats is still attractive. Watch out for delaminated decking, and rotting plywood
                        bulkheads.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Jim Goeckermann" <jim@...>
                        To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 10:51 AM
                        Subject: [bolger] Boat Economics


                        >> another insight that should be factored in here. When you start dreaming
                        > of something that is longer than about 18 feet, IF money and time are
                        > considerations, there is another avenue to consider. The fiberglass
                        > boats of the 70s and 80s that are available on both coasts are not to be
                        > overlooked. (They can be worth buying just for the riggings and
                        > trailer!) The boat per dollar far exceeds anything you can build, and
                        > you spend your time sailing rather than building. Don't shoot me! - I am
                      • pvanderwaart
                        ... I agree, with the exception of emphasis. I would say that the above 20 market is more uniform in boat type than is the market for smaller boats. Most of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 6, 2003
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                          > The used daysailer market is conceptually very
                          > limited. Sloops with cuddies, with a few exceptions.

                          I agree, with the exception of emphasis. I would say that the above
                          20' market is more uniform in boat type than is the market for
                          smaller boats. Most of the variety is the legacy of 40 years of
                          design development, Alberg through Farr. Yawls and schooners are all
                          but extinct, and ketches seem to be rarer every year (not that I want
                          a ketch, you understand). Aside from a few English imports, there's
                          not a gaffer to be had, except for the 20-25' Cape Cod cats.

                          At just about every point in the last quarter century, there has been
                          one firm or another producing a cat ketch in cruising boat size, but
                          I don't know of one in the business right now.

                          There IS variety of course. Island Packet and J-boats are not really
                          in competition with each other, and neither are Pacific Seacraft and
                          Catalina.

                          Peter
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