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Peter L: About Alisa

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  • pvanderwaart
    Peter, As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any insight about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa? Peter V. (Apologies to
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 29, 2003
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      Peter,

      As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any insight
      about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?

      Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel free
      to offer their own answers.)
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... insight ... free ... Peter V., Big boat construction expert ?.....it s only my first big boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 29, 2003
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
        > Peter,
        >
        > As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any
        insight
        > about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?
        >
        > Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel
        free
        > to offer their own answers.)

        Peter V.,
        "Big boat construction expert"?.....it's only my first big
        boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real experts
        will chime in too........!!!
        It's rather difficult to offer a sound diagnostic to Franks'
        grief with his lovely AS-29 ALISA without actually seeing the
        boat...however his pictures of the"problem" are suggestive.
        Right off the top,and I do hate to run this down anyones
        throat, I suspect/fear that alot of the grief that has manifested
        itself on ALISA could have been avoided had the original builder
        applied the"hollowing" technique which I have described in the past
        and posted rough sketches of in the files section. It won't help
        Frank any to hear about this but here goes;
        The diligent first builder probably did a first class job of
        getting all his"joints" well smeared with epoxy and then tightened
        down nice and hard on the fastenings.The resulting joint was no doubt
        sound. Unfortunately,if the out side treatment lacked in anyway a
        proper sealing of the wood to inhibit moisture penetration,then some
        moisture did get into the wood.Not much,but some nevertheless.Cycling
        through our Canadian winters combined with any swelling of the wood
        (especially framing stock like the chine logs) from moisture
        absorbtion easily over came the original integrity of the joints due
        essentially to glue starvation(wouldn't happen with the "hollowing
        technique).
        Added to this,perhaps,was a less then thorough
        preparation/sanding of sub-assemblies as was found up forward at the
        base of the main tabernacle( if I remember correctly).
        Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
        wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
        expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
        water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
        coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
        A number of remedies are available for Frank's boat but all
        depend on how much time/effort/money Frank wants to use to make her
        sound once again.
        Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
        hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
        those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
        way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
        skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
        high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
        and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
        So that's my humble take on it and is offered from the
        perspective of a boat subjected to temperature extremes such as those
        found in Eastern Canada.Lucky devils way to the South of me may tell
        me where to stuff it :-).Also, I do realize that this may not apply
        to smaller,trailerable,dry-sailed boats,especially if all one seeks
        is a quick-n-dirty craft to play on the water with for the least $$$
        possible. For bigger boats however,which may spend an entire season
        sitting in the water,I cannot help but conclude that for all the
        time/effort and sacrifice needed to see one of these through till the
        end along with a reasonable amount of expected use/lifetime, it
        hardly makes any sense to skimp.


        Sincerely,

        Peter"always ready to offer tons of free advice"Lenihan,who eagerly
        looks forward to hearing some real experts shedding some light into a
        dark hole I may have missed,from along the St.Lawrence.......
      • Frank San Miguel
        Thanks Peter(s), I agree with all points. The biggest culprit is simply the plain old leaks in the bilgeboard cases probably caused, as you say, by joint
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 29, 2003
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          Thanks Peter(s),

          I agree with all points.

          The biggest culprit is simply the plain old leaks in the bilgeboard
          cases probably caused, as you say, by joint starvation and temperature
          cycling. The second biggest culprit was the damage done to the chines
          by the slings and blocks in the boat yard (remeber the slighly convex
          bottom caused by assembling the boat upside down).

          Frank
          Landenbger, PA

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <lestat@b...> wrote:
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
          > > Peter,
          > >
          > > As our resident big boat construction expert, do you have any
          > insight
          > > about what might have caused the rot problems with Alisa?
          > >
          > > Peter V. (Apologies to other builders of big boats, who may feel
          > free
          > > to offer their own answers.)
          >
          > Peter V.,
          > "Big boat construction expert"?.....it's only my first big
          > boat Peter but thanks for the compliment.Hopefully some real experts
          > will chime in too........!!!
          > It's rather difficult to offer a sound diagnostic to Franks'
          > grief with his lovely AS-29 ALISA without actually seeing the
          > boat...however his pictures of the"problem" are suggestive.
          > Right off the top,and I do hate to run this down anyones
          > throat, I suspect/fear that alot of the grief that has manifested
          > itself on ALISA could have been avoided had the original builder
          > applied the"hollowing" technique which I have described in the past
          > and posted rough sketches of in the files section. It won't help
          > Frank any to hear about this but here goes;
          > The diligent first builder probably did a first class job of
          > getting all his"joints" well smeared with epoxy and then tightened
          > down nice and hard on the fastenings.The resulting joint was no doubt
          > sound. Unfortunately,if the out side treatment lacked in anyway a
          > proper sealing of the wood to inhibit moisture penetration,then some
          > moisture did get into the wood.Not much,but some nevertheless.Cycling
          > through our Canadian winters combined with any swelling of the wood
          > (especially framing stock like the chine logs) from moisture
          > absorbtion easily over came the original integrity of the joints due
          > essentially to glue starvation(wouldn't happen with the "hollowing
          > technique).
          > Added to this,perhaps,was a less then thorough
          > preparation/sanding of sub-assemblies as was found up forward at the
          > base of the main tabernacle( if I remember correctly).
          > Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
          > wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
          > expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
          > water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
          > coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
          > A number of remedies are available for Frank's boat but all
          > depend on how much time/effort/money Frank wants to use to make her
          > sound once again.
          > Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
          > hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
          > those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
          > way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
          > skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
          > high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
          > and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)
          > So that's my humble take on it and is offered from the
          > perspective of a boat subjected to temperature extremes such as those
          > found in Eastern Canada.Lucky devils way to the South of me may tell
          > me where to stuff it :-).Also, I do realize that this may not apply
          > to smaller,trailerable,dry-sailed boats,especially if all one seeks
          > is a quick-n-dirty craft to play on the water with for the least $$$
          > possible. For bigger boats however,which may spend an entire season
          > sitting in the water,I cannot help but conclude that for all the
          > time/effort and sacrifice needed to see one of these through till the
          > end along with a reasonable amount of expected use/lifetime, it
          > hardly makes any sense to skimp.
          >
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Peter"always ready to offer tons of free advice"Lenihan,who eagerly
          > looks forward to hearing some real experts shedding some light into a
          > dark hole I may have missed,from along the St.Lawrence.......
        • Jeff
          ... One step that cannot be skipped or done halfway. Anyplace you are going to lay down epoxy on top of epoxy, do it within 24 hours to get a chemical bond
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 30, 2003
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            > Furthermore,the presence of the metal fastners left in the
            > wood at a critical juncture(the chine) allowed again for different
            > expansion rates to occure thus creating micro fissures for
            > water/moisture penetration.A super epoxy/glass build up and barrier
            > coat treatment would have perhaps saved the day?
            > Obviously,we can all benefit from Franks experience by seeing first
            > hand the fate which may await any builder who tries to breeze through
            > those tedious and un-exciting early building steps and /or who puts
            > way too much faith in the power of the almighty epoxy to pardon ones
            > skimping on the "preparations" part of the instruction label.These
            > high-tech products are only as good as the care taken in preparing
            > and using them according to the"manufactureres instructions" :-)

            One step that cannot be skipped or done halfway. Anyplace you are going to
            lay down epoxy on top of epoxy, do it within 24 hours to get a chemical
            bond or sand it very, very well. Use something like 80 - 100 grit and
            resurface the entire area so the new epoxy can get a mechanical bond.

            My example is very recent. Last year I started Wyoming cockpit section, two
            weeks ago I finally got around to doing the chines. I sanded well about 4
            inches either side of the chine, laid on the 3 layers of glass tape, then
            faired out and sanded again. Any place that I did not originally sand far
            enough away from the chine and it got coated with new epoxy could be chipped
            and peeled easily screwdriver tapped lightly with a hammer. Without good
            prep sanding, imagine what could happen after flexing or a good bump to the
            chine. It would probably start seeping slowly.

            Needless to say, I sanded a lot of it away and re-faired the joint.

            My point is that while we are building, a lot of times days or weeks pass
            before we get back to our project. Picking up where we left off with out
            good surface prep can have negative effects in the future. I can think of
            several places this is very likely to happen, all with possible leakage
            problems, especially chines and centerboard trunks.

            Jeff
          • Don Tyson
            Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end of theworking temp (50 f).
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 1, 2003
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              Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end of theworking temp (50 f).


              < do it within 24 hours to get a chemical
              bond or sand it very, very well. Use something like 80 - 100 grit and
              resurface the entire area so the new epoxy can get a mechanical bond.
              I would also wash with medium amonia sollution to remove any wax (seen or unseen, its there). I the glue set for more than nine or ten days I would acetone wash the glue before grinding and after grinding as this will ensure a good mechanical bond.
              > My example is very recent. Last year I started Wyoming cockpit section, two
              weeks ago I finally got around to doing the chines. I sanded well about 4
              inches either side of the chine, laid on the 3 layers of glass tape, then
              faired out and sanded again. Any place that I did not originally sand far
              enough away from the chine and it got coated with new epoxy could be chipped
              and peeled easily screwdriver tapped lightly with a hammer.

              10/4

              > Without good
              prep sanding, imagine what could happen after flexing or a good bump to the
              chine. It would probably start seeping slowly.

              Yup!

              <My point is that while we are building, a lot of times days or weeks pass
              before we get back to our project. Picking up where we left off with out
              good surface prep can have negative effects in the future. I can think of
              several places this is very likely to happen, all with possible leakage
              problems, especially chines and centerboard trunks.

              Jeff







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jeff
              ... theworking temp (50 f). ... I m sure that is true, the colder it gets the longer the time to wait. I m just not sure enough to know what so I just use the
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 1, 2003
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                > Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end of
                theworking temp (50 f).
                >

                I'm sure that is true, the colder it gets the longer the time to wait. I'm
                just not sure enough to know what so I just use the 24 hour time period to
                be save.

                I would image that the manufacturer of the Epoxy would have that info
                available.

                Jeff
              • Don Tyson
                Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics. Jeff, did you say yor building a Wyoming? ... theworking temp (50 f). ... I m sure that is true, the colder it gets
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 1, 2003
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                  Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.

                  Jeff, did you say yor building a Wyoming?

                  Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:


                  > Jeff, I heard up to 72 hrs for a chemical bond at the lower end of
                  theworking temp (50 f).
                  >

                  I'm sure that is true, the colder it gets the longer the time to wait. I'm
                  just not sure enough to know what so I just use the 24 hour time period to
                  be save.

                  I would image that the manufacturer of the Epoxy would have that info
                  available.

                  Jeff



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                • Jeff
                  ... www.4dw.net/cosailor Jeff
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 1, 2003
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                    > Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.

                    www.4dw.net/cosailor

                    Jeff
                  • Don Tyson
                    Wow! Big boat , Huh? Like to see is roaring up the Platte in spring flood. Jeff wrote: Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 1, 2003
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                      Wow! Big boat , Huh? Like to see is roaring up the Platte in spring flood.

                      Jeff <boatbuilding@...> wrote:> Wanted: Wyo Update conplete w/recent pics.

                      www.4dw.net/cosailor

                      Jeff



                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                      w

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