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Re: Bruce's teal mast

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  • Frank San Miguel
    ... I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where I d otherwise be
    Message 1 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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      Comments below:

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
      wrote:
      > --- "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
      > > I am liking that mast a lot.
      > > What kind of tree is it? :-)
      >
      > Some species of Eucalyptus
      > from a forest near my house,
      > not perfectly straight, but
      > as close as I could find.
      >
      > I am guessing, that tree
      > wood fibers are stronger
      > when they are 'round' as
      > opposed to sawn into a board
      > with cross grain, excentricity,
      > etc...
      >
      > I am frankly shocked to see that
      > the specified mast height of
      > 15'8 1/2" exceeds the length
      > of the boat by several feet.
      >
      > Am wondering if that much sail
      > without a way to reef might be
      > a problem in certain winds???

      I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions
      where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where
      I'd otherwise be stuck on the beach! :-)

      > I am also curious of opinions of
      > how to cut the sail. Leech and
      > foot straight, the luff should be
      > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
      > Though, perhaps the flexibility
      > of the needle thin mast might
      > be enough for the 'fattening'
      > of the sail without any special cut.

      I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
      spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
      mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
      upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
      that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
      timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

      I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
      and my AF-3 sail has both:
      1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
      do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
      you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
      pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
      2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
      the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
      gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
      blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
      part when you heel low.

      So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
      cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
      orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
      any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
      read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
      Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
      info.

      Frank
    • welshman@ptialaska.net
      Bruce Check out http://www.sailcut.com/ for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels HJ ... From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 01
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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        Bruce

        Check out

        http://www.sailcut.com/

        for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels

        HJ

        Original Message:
        -----------------
        From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@...
        Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:03:14 -0000
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [bolger] Re: Bruce's teal mast



        > I am also curious of opinions of
        > how to cut the sail. Leech and
        > foot straight, the luff should be
        > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
        > Though, perhaps the flexibility
        > of the needle thin mast might
        > be enough for the 'fattening'
        > of the sail without any special cut.

        I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
        spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
        mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
        upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
        that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
        timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

        I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
        and my AF-3 sail has both:
        1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
        do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
        you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
        pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
        2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
        the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
        gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
        blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
        part when you heel low.

        So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
        cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
        orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
        any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
        read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
        Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
        info.

        Frank



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      • Peter Lenihan
        ... Bruce, I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef points, and why
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
          wrote:
          > Am wondering if that much sail
          > without a way to reef might be
          > a problem in certain winds???
          >
          > I am also curious of opinions of
          > how to cut the sail. Leech and
          > foot straight, the luff should be
          > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
          > Though, perhaps the flexibility
          > of the needle thin mast might
          > be enough for the 'fattening'
          > of the sail without any special cut.
          >
          > Anybody know how to cut a Teal sail?

          Bruce,
          I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local
          sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef
          points, and why the sail on the plans appeared to be cut rather
          flat.He also wanted to know how much the mast will bend.
          I knew even less then,than I do today about sails and figured I
          get the answers from the "horse's mouth". So,I called Bolger(these
          were in the days when he actually posted a phone number with his
          study plans).He picked up on the second ring.After some very light
          chit-chat,I put my sailmakers questions to him.With an economy of
          words that has to be heard to be appreciated,Bolger replied,in
          brief,cut the sail to the dimensions on the plans;do not try to guess
          mast bend since it varies according to building method and wood
          species and no reef points;the boat was not designed to be used in
          winds that would require reef points;if your sailmaker can't do
          it,then order the one available from Bondhle(sp).
          Sure 'nough,my sailmaker said he couldn't do it.I order may sail
          and used the SURF for several years with great satisfaction and
          happiness.Always respected the small craft warnings too,since I was
          convinced they were just for me :-)
          The TEAL is even smaller then the SURF, and I can only imagine
          that pretty much all of the above would basically apply too.

          Sincerely,
          Peter Lenihan
        • oneillparker
          ... Reefing by rolling around the mast won t let you rig the sprit. Big drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff to allow reefing
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2003
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            >
            > Am wondering if that much sail
            > without a way to reef might be
            > a problem in certain winds???

            Reefing by rolling around the mast won't let you rig the sprit. Big
            drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff
            to allow reefing that way.
            I put reef points on my Cartoppers' sails. Same rig. They work great.
            Obviously you'll need a halyard. Halyards add a lot of stress to a
            mast. Bolger specifies mast dimensions for these rigs without
            figuring in halyard stress. If you go the halyard route (and I've
            sailed my Cartoppers reefed many, many times, with great enjoyment),
            you'll want to dimension the mast a little bigger, or, rig up a jam
            cleat at the mast head to relieve halyard stress. I use an open type
            cleat mounted about 12" down from the masthead, in way of the
            halyard. I hoist as usual, look up to make sure the halyard is in the
            jam cleat, secure the downhaul, then I can let go the halyard and the
            sail stays up. It works like a charm, and tremdously reduces mast
            bend. When you want to douse sail, just pull the halyard away from
            the mast, the jam cleat lets go, and down she comes.


            > I am also curious of opinions of
            > how to cut the sail. Leech and
            > foot straight, the luff should be
            > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
            > Though, perhaps the flexibility
            > of the needle thin mast might
            > be enough for the 'fattening'
            > of the sail without any special cut.

            You do want some mast bend. It will significantly de-power the sail
            in gusts.
            Cut the foot dead straight. Cut some hollow in the leech to avoid
            flutter. You do want draft, and a fair about of it because its a
            catboat (no jib to help direct mainsail flow), so cut the luff about
            3%-5% longer than the chord (horizantal dimension of the sail at any
            given point). That number is gleaned from "The Sailmakers Apprentice"
            by Emiliano Marino.

            In higher winds tighten the snotter, the mast bends, and takes the
            round out of the luff, flattening the sail and de-powering it.
            Downwind in light air loosen the snotter and allow the sail to
            billow, giving more power. In medium/high winds, downwind, tighten
            the snotter to flatten sail and reduce/eliminate rythmic roll (a
            scary thing). You might consider rigging up the snotter so you can
            alter its verticle position. This gives you some additional leech
            control. In lighter winds set it low on the mast, in higher winds set
            it high. In real high winds set it lower (but not low) allowing the
            leech to open and spilling some breeze, while yet allowing the
            snotter to be kept tight, bending that mast (further de-powering).

            I bought my sails, pre-cut but not assembled, from Sailrite, and have
            been quite pleased with them (although I don't think they cut enough
            draft into them).

            Hope that helps.

            John O'Neill
          • uncleralph123
            ... Frank What is the beam of White Eel? Ralph
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 3, 2003
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
              > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
              > but narrow.
              >

              Frank

              What is the beam of White Eel?

              Ralph
            • Frank San Miguel
              I couldn t rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here are some Specs for White Eel: 69 length overall 64 6 length at waterline 11 7 Breadth
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                I couldn't rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here
                are some Specs for White Eel:
                69' length overall
                64'6" length at waterline
                11'7" Breadth over rub moldings
                9'0" Breadth bottom
                2'8" draft over skeg ar full fuel
                1'11" Load hull draft
                11'9" Height overall
                9'7" Bridge clearance loaded
                Displacement w/ full fuel load: 52,100 lb
                Max hullspeed (nominal): 10.76 knots, possibly exceeding with her
                slender shape.

                Some other neat features:
                - something like 5000 nm range
                - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                - 4" thick bottom, probably having a steel shoe, 2" thick sides
                with extra 2" blue foam insulation

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...> wrote:
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                > > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                > > but narrow.
                > >
                >
                > Frank
                >
                > What is the beam of White Eel?
                >
                > Ralph
              • Susan Davis
                ... Which design is that? -- Susan Davis
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                  > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck

                  Which design is that?

                  --
                  Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                • Frank San Miguel
                  Susan, Its a yet-to-be-designed 15 boat. If you want to imagine it : take a tortoise, extend it to 15 , add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the latest PCB&F
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 5, 2003
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                    Susan,

                    Its a yet-to-be-designed 15' boat. If you want to imagine it : take a
                    tortoise, extend it to 15', add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the
                    latest PCB&F styling, add a sail rig.

                    Frank

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
                    > > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                    >
                    > Which design is that?
                    >
                    > --
                    > Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
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