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Re: Kingston: Plan Viewing

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... Well... I especially like the Bolger boats that I can imagine handling single handed. My Teal was really fun to build, effectively done now 7 days, 30
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 31, 2003
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      --- "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

      > You know, Bruce, I bet you
      > really want to build a Rose.... :-)

      Well...

      I especially like the Bolger
      boats that I can imagine
      handling single handed.

      My Teal was really fun to build,
      effectively 'done' now 7 days,
      30 hours and about $200 into it.

      Except, I am still waiting for the
      white polytarp to come via FedEx,
      and hopefully it will come tomorrow.
      In time for the weekend.

      http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Teal3/

      I also want a Folding Schooner, and
      a Naval Jelly Galley, and they aren't
      single handed. hmmm
    • Frank San Miguel
      Bruce, I think he s designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could hold a lot
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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        Bruce,

        I think he's designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading
        something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could
        hold a lot of people. It fell off the slings during lauch and landed
        upside down in the water without much damage.

        White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
        but narrow.

        Frank


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
        > > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
        >
        > Except for Rose, a 69 footer might
        > be the longest/biggest boat Bolger
        > ever designed.
        >
        > Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...
      • Frank San Miguel
        Bruce, I am liking that mast a lot. What kind of tree is it? :-) Frank
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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          Bruce,

          I am liking that mast a lot. What kind of tree is it? :-)

          Frank

          > Except, I am still waiting for the
          > white polytarp to come via FedEx,
          > and hopefully it will come tomorrow.
          > In time for the weekend.
          >
          > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Teal3/
          >
          > I also want a Folding Schooner, and
          > a Naval Jelly Galley, and they aren't
          > single handed. hmmm
        • John Warns
          I seen to remember reading about a 95 footer called the Sir Joseph Banks that was designed but never built. ... From: Frank San Miguel [mailto:sanmi@yahoo.com]
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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            I seen to remember reading about a 95 footer called the Sir Joseph Banks
            that was designed but never built.





            -----Original Message-----
            From: Frank San Miguel [mailto:sanmi@...]
            Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:05 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Kingston: Plan Viewing



            Bruce,

            I think he's designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading
            something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could
            hold a lot of people. It fell off the slings during lauch and landed
            upside down in the water without much damage.

            White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
            but narrow.

            Frank


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
            wrote:
            > > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
            >
            > Except for Rose, a 69 footer might
            > be the longest/biggest boat Bolger
            > ever designed.
            >
            > Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...





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          • Bruce Hallman
            ... Some species of Eucalyptus from a forest near my house, not perfectly straight, but as close as I could find. I am guessing, that tree wood fibers are
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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              --- "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
              > I am liking that mast a lot.
              > What kind of tree is it? :-)

              Some species of Eucalyptus
              from a forest near my house,
              not perfectly straight, but
              as close as I could find.

              I am guessing, that tree
              wood fibers are stronger
              when they are 'round' as
              opposed to sawn into a board
              with cross grain, excentricity,
              etc...

              I am frankly shocked to see that
              the specified mast height of
              15'8 1/2" exceeds the length
              of the boat by several feet.

              Am wondering if that much sail
              without a way to reef might be
              a problem in certain winds???

              I am also curious of opinions of
              how to cut the sail. Leech and
              foot straight, the luff should be
              'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
              Though, perhaps the flexibility
              of the needle thin mast might
              be enough for the 'fattening'
              of the sail without any special cut.

              Anybody know how to cut a Teal sail?
            • Frank San Miguel
              ... I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where I d otherwise be
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                Comments below:

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
                wrote:
                > --- "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                > > I am liking that mast a lot.
                > > What kind of tree is it? :-)
                >
                > Some species of Eucalyptus
                > from a forest near my house,
                > not perfectly straight, but
                > as close as I could find.
                >
                > I am guessing, that tree
                > wood fibers are stronger
                > when they are 'round' as
                > opposed to sawn into a board
                > with cross grain, excentricity,
                > etc...
                >
                > I am frankly shocked to see that
                > the specified mast height of
                > 15'8 1/2" exceeds the length
                > of the boat by several feet.
                >
                > Am wondering if that much sail
                > without a way to reef might be
                > a problem in certain winds???

                I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions
                where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where
                I'd otherwise be stuck on the beach! :-)

                > I am also curious of opinions of
                > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                > foot straight, the luff should be
                > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                > of the needle thin mast might
                > be enough for the 'fattening'
                > of the sail without any special cut.

                I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
                spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
                mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
                upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
                that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
                timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

                I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
                and my AF-3 sail has both:
                1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
                do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
                you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
                pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
                2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
                the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
                gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
                blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
                part when you heel low.

                So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
                cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
                orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
                any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
                read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
                Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
                info.

                Frank
              • welshman@ptialaska.net
                Bruce Check out http://www.sailcut.com/ for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels HJ ... From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 01
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                  Bruce

                  Check out

                  http://www.sailcut.com/

                  for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels

                  HJ

                  Original Message:
                  -----------------
                  From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@...
                  Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:03:14 -0000
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Bruce's teal mast



                  > I am also curious of opinions of
                  > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                  > foot straight, the luff should be
                  > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                  > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                  > of the needle thin mast might
                  > be enough for the 'fattening'
                  > of the sail without any special cut.

                  I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
                  spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
                  mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
                  upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
                  that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
                  timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

                  I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
                  and my AF-3 sail has both:
                  1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
                  do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
                  you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
                  pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
                  2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
                  the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
                  gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
                  blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
                  part when you heel low.

                  So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
                  cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
                  orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
                  any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
                  read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
                  Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
                  info.

                  Frank



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                • Peter Lenihan
                  ... Bruce, I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef points, and why
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > Am wondering if that much sail
                    > without a way to reef might be
                    > a problem in certain winds???
                    >
                    > I am also curious of opinions of
                    > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                    > foot straight, the luff should be
                    > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                    > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                    > of the needle thin mast might
                    > be enough for the 'fattening'
                    > of the sail without any special cut.
                    >
                    > Anybody know how to cut a Teal sail?

                    Bruce,
                    I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local
                    sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef
                    points, and why the sail on the plans appeared to be cut rather
                    flat.He also wanted to know how much the mast will bend.
                    I knew even less then,than I do today about sails and figured I
                    get the answers from the "horse's mouth". So,I called Bolger(these
                    were in the days when he actually posted a phone number with his
                    study plans).He picked up on the second ring.After some very light
                    chit-chat,I put my sailmakers questions to him.With an economy of
                    words that has to be heard to be appreciated,Bolger replied,in
                    brief,cut the sail to the dimensions on the plans;do not try to guess
                    mast bend since it varies according to building method and wood
                    species and no reef points;the boat was not designed to be used in
                    winds that would require reef points;if your sailmaker can't do
                    it,then order the one available from Bondhle(sp).
                    Sure 'nough,my sailmaker said he couldn't do it.I order may sail
                    and used the SURF for several years with great satisfaction and
                    happiness.Always respected the small craft warnings too,since I was
                    convinced they were just for me :-)
                    The TEAL is even smaller then the SURF, and I can only imagine
                    that pretty much all of the above would basically apply too.

                    Sincerely,
                    Peter Lenihan
                  • oneillparker
                    ... Reefing by rolling around the mast won t let you rig the sprit. Big drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff to allow reefing
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 2, 2003
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                      >
                      > Am wondering if that much sail
                      > without a way to reef might be
                      > a problem in certain winds???

                      Reefing by rolling around the mast won't let you rig the sprit. Big
                      drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff
                      to allow reefing that way.
                      I put reef points on my Cartoppers' sails. Same rig. They work great.
                      Obviously you'll need a halyard. Halyards add a lot of stress to a
                      mast. Bolger specifies mast dimensions for these rigs without
                      figuring in halyard stress. If you go the halyard route (and I've
                      sailed my Cartoppers reefed many, many times, with great enjoyment),
                      you'll want to dimension the mast a little bigger, or, rig up a jam
                      cleat at the mast head to relieve halyard stress. I use an open type
                      cleat mounted about 12" down from the masthead, in way of the
                      halyard. I hoist as usual, look up to make sure the halyard is in the
                      jam cleat, secure the downhaul, then I can let go the halyard and the
                      sail stays up. It works like a charm, and tremdously reduces mast
                      bend. When you want to douse sail, just pull the halyard away from
                      the mast, the jam cleat lets go, and down she comes.


                      > I am also curious of opinions of
                      > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                      > foot straight, the luff should be
                      > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                      > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                      > of the needle thin mast might
                      > be enough for the 'fattening'
                      > of the sail without any special cut.

                      You do want some mast bend. It will significantly de-power the sail
                      in gusts.
                      Cut the foot dead straight. Cut some hollow in the leech to avoid
                      flutter. You do want draft, and a fair about of it because its a
                      catboat (no jib to help direct mainsail flow), so cut the luff about
                      3%-5% longer than the chord (horizantal dimension of the sail at any
                      given point). That number is gleaned from "The Sailmakers Apprentice"
                      by Emiliano Marino.

                      In higher winds tighten the snotter, the mast bends, and takes the
                      round out of the luff, flattening the sail and de-powering it.
                      Downwind in light air loosen the snotter and allow the sail to
                      billow, giving more power. In medium/high winds, downwind, tighten
                      the snotter to flatten sail and reduce/eliminate rythmic roll (a
                      scary thing). You might consider rigging up the snotter so you can
                      alter its verticle position. This gives you some additional leech
                      control. In lighter winds set it low on the mast, in higher winds set
                      it high. In real high winds set it lower (but not low) allowing the
                      leech to open and spilling some breeze, while yet allowing the
                      snotter to be kept tight, bending that mast (further de-powering).

                      I bought my sails, pre-cut but not assembled, from Sailrite, and have
                      been quite pleased with them (although I don't think they cut enough
                      draft into them).

                      Hope that helps.

                      John O'Neill
                    • uncleralph123
                      ... Frank What is the beam of White Eel? Ralph
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 3, 2003
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                        > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                        > but narrow.
                        >

                        Frank

                        What is the beam of White Eel?

                        Ralph
                      • Frank San Miguel
                        I couldn t rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here are some Specs for White Eel: 69 length overall 64 6 length at waterline 11 7 Breadth
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                          I couldn't rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here
                          are some Specs for White Eel:
                          69' length overall
                          64'6" length at waterline
                          11'7" Breadth over rub moldings
                          9'0" Breadth bottom
                          2'8" draft over skeg ar full fuel
                          1'11" Load hull draft
                          11'9" Height overall
                          9'7" Bridge clearance loaded
                          Displacement w/ full fuel load: 52,100 lb
                          Max hullspeed (nominal): 10.76 knots, possibly exceeding with her
                          slender shape.

                          Some other neat features:
                          - something like 5000 nm range
                          - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                          - 4" thick bottom, probably having a steel shoe, 2" thick sides
                          with extra 2" blue foam insulation

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...> wrote:
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                          > > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                          > > but narrow.
                          > >
                          >
                          > Frank
                          >
                          > What is the beam of White Eel?
                          >
                          > Ralph
                        • Susan Davis
                          ... Which design is that? -- Susan Davis
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                            > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck

                            Which design is that?

                            --
                            Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                          • Frank San Miguel
                            Susan, Its a yet-to-be-designed 15 boat. If you want to imagine it : take a tortoise, extend it to 15 , add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the latest PCB&F
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 5, 2003
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                              Susan,

                              Its a yet-to-be-designed 15' boat. If you want to imagine it : take a
                              tortoise, extend it to 15', add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the
                              latest PCB&F styling, add a sail rig.

                              Frank

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
                              > > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                              >
                              > Which design is that?
                              >
                              > --
                              > Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
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