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Kingston: Plan Viewing

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  • Frank San Miguel
    For the Kingston messabout, what do you think bringing the boat plans in our possession for a viewing session? I know I d love to see some of the plans for
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 31 7:10 AM
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      For the Kingston messabout, what do you think bringing the boat plans
      in our possession for a viewing session? I know I'd love to see some
      of the plans for the Bolger craft that are building or have been built.

      I've got plans for Jochems, AS-29 and AS-29 enhancements. I can also
      bring the design study for White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti (not
      been published yet).

      I am firmly against illegally copying plans, software etc, and am not
      suggesting any form of pirating. Instead I think this is a golden
      opportunity to do some studying and dreaming!
    • Susan Davis
      ... I ve got the H&HS (obviously), the Breakdown Schooner, the CS-24, the Windsprint, the Cartopper (if I can find it), the Gull book, and some stuff from
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 31 8:15 AM
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        > I've got plans for Jochems, AS-29 and AS-29 enhancements. I can also
        > bring the design study for White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti (not
        > been published yet).

        I've got the H&HS (obviously), the Breakdown Schooner, the CS-24,
        the Windsprint, the Cartopper (if I can find it), the Gull book,
        and some stuff from other designers (Lightning, Snipe, Paradox,
        others). If the I60 plans are finished by then (I'm not holding
        my breath), I'll bring those, too.

        --
        Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... !!!!!!!!!
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 31 10:39 AM
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          > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti

          !!!!!!!!!
        • Sam Glasscock
          My reaction exactly, Bruce. Man, would I love to see those plans. Is this just a study for a proposal, or are full plans in the works? ...
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 31 11:27 AM
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            My reaction exactly, Bruce. Man, would I love to see
            those plans. Is this just a study for a proposal, or
            are full plans in the works?
            --- Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> wrote:
            > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
            >
            > !!!!!!!!!
            >
            >


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          • Frank San Miguel
            We got as far the proposal and then I chickened out. Both Phil and Suzanne have said its one of thier favorite designs. I ve asked for permission to share
            Message 5 of 23 , Jul 31 12:02 PM
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              We got as far the proposal and then I chickened out. Both Phil and
              Suzanne have said its one of thier favorite designs.

              I've asked for permission to share some stuff on the internet but
              never got the OK - I have to respect thier wishes. I think they want
              to do thier own writeup first. But there's no reason I shouldn't
              bring the proposal to the messabout.

              I made an illustration of her a while back, I'll see if I can't post
              it in the files.

              Frank

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@y...>
              wrote:
              > My reaction exactly, Bruce. Man, would I love to see
              > those plans. Is this just a study for a proposal, or
              > are full plans in the works?
              > --- Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
              > > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
              > >
              > > !!!!!!!!!
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
              > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
            • welshman@ptialaska.net
              You know Bruce, I bet you really want to build a White Eel. HJ ... mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .
              Message 6 of 23 , Jul 31 12:16 PM
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                You know Bruce, I bet you really want to build a White Eel.

                HJ

                > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti

                !!!!!!!!!



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              • Bruce Hallman
                ... Except for Rose, a 69 footer might be the longest/biggest boat Bolger ever designed. Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...
                Message 7 of 23 , Jul 31 1:54 PM
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                  > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti

                  Except for Rose, a 69 footer might
                  be the longest/biggest boat Bolger
                  ever designed.

                  Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...
                • Bob Chamberland
                  I hadn t thought of that but I will bring my box of plans. My assortment of plans are a history of my daydreaming about boats, mostly sail, they date from a
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jul 31 4:18 PM
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                    I hadn't thought of that but I will bring my box of plans.
                    My assortment of plans are a history of my daydreaming about boats,
                    mostly sail, they date from a lovely sailboat (1952) designed by
                    Harrison Farrel of Massapequoit (sp) NY to my last project, Bobcat.
                    This is a great idea and I hope the plans go beyond Mr Bolger.
                    Bob Chamberland



                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                    > For the Kingston messabout, what do you think bringing the boat plans
                    > in our possession for a viewing session?
                  • Susan Davis
                    ... You know, Bruce, I bet you really want to build a Rose.... :-) -- Susan Davis
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jul 31 5:23 PM
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "welshman@p..." <welshman@p...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You know Bruce, I bet you really want to build a White Eel.

                      You know, Bruce, I bet you really want to build a Rose.... :-)

                      --
                      Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                    • Bruce Hector
                      ... I hope the plans go beyond Mr Bolger They sure will. In addition to my Bolger collection, there will be Mr. Welsfords Seagull and Light Dory at my table.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jul 31 5:31 PM
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Chamberland" <cha62759@t...>
                        I hope the plans go beyond Mr Bolger

                        They sure will. In addition to my Bolger collection, there will be
                        Mr. Welsfords Seagull and Light Dory at my table. Enjoy all!

                        Bruce Hector
                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... Well... I especially like the Bolger boats that I can imagine handling single handed. My Teal was really fun to build, effectively done now 7 days, 30
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jul 31 8:47 PM
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                          --- "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:

                          > You know, Bruce, I bet you
                          > really want to build a Rose.... :-)

                          Well...

                          I especially like the Bolger
                          boats that I can imagine
                          handling single handed.

                          My Teal was really fun to build,
                          effectively 'done' now 7 days,
                          30 hours and about $200 into it.

                          Except, I am still waiting for the
                          white polytarp to come via FedEx,
                          and hopefully it will come tomorrow.
                          In time for the weekend.

                          http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Teal3/

                          I also want a Folding Schooner, and
                          a Naval Jelly Galley, and they aren't
                          single handed. hmmm
                        • Frank San Miguel
                          Bruce, I think he s designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could hold a lot
                          Message 12 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                            Bruce,

                            I think he's designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading
                            something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could
                            hold a lot of people. It fell off the slings during lauch and landed
                            upside down in the water without much damage.

                            White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                            but narrow.

                            Frank


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
                            > > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
                            >
                            > Except for Rose, a 69 footer might
                            > be the longest/biggest boat Bolger
                            > ever designed.
                            >
                            > Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...
                          • Frank San Miguel
                            Bruce, I am liking that mast a lot. What kind of tree is it? :-) Frank
                            Message 13 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                              Bruce,

                              I am liking that mast a lot. What kind of tree is it? :-)

                              Frank

                              > Except, I am still waiting for the
                              > white polytarp to come via FedEx,
                              > and hopefully it will come tomorrow.
                              > In time for the weekend.
                              >
                              > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Teal3/
                              >
                              > I also want a Folding Schooner, and
                              > a Naval Jelly Galley, and they aren't
                              > single handed. hmmm
                            • John Warns
                              I seen to remember reading about a 95 footer called the Sir Joseph Banks that was designed but never built. ... From: Frank San Miguel [mailto:sanmi@yahoo.com]
                              Message 14 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                I seen to remember reading about a 95 footer called the Sir Joseph Banks
                                that was designed but never built.





                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Frank San Miguel [mailto:sanmi@...]
                                Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 7:05 AM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Kingston: Plan Viewing



                                Bruce,

                                I think he's designed some other big ones. I seem to remember reading
                                something he wrote about a big steel planing yacht (BWAOM?) - it could
                                hold a lot of people. It fell off the slings during lauch and landed
                                upside down in the water without much damage.

                                White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                                but narrow.

                                Frank


                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > > > White Eel, a 69' version of Tahiti
                                >
                                > Except for Rose, a 69 footer might
                                > be the longest/biggest boat Bolger
                                > ever designed.
                                >
                                > Made from wood, or steel, I wonder...





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                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... Some species of Eucalyptus from a forest near my house, not perfectly straight, but as close as I could find. I am guessing, that tree wood fibers are
                                Message 15 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                  --- "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                                  > I am liking that mast a lot.
                                  > What kind of tree is it? :-)

                                  Some species of Eucalyptus
                                  from a forest near my house,
                                  not perfectly straight, but
                                  as close as I could find.

                                  I am guessing, that tree
                                  wood fibers are stronger
                                  when they are 'round' as
                                  opposed to sawn into a board
                                  with cross grain, excentricity,
                                  etc...

                                  I am frankly shocked to see that
                                  the specified mast height of
                                  15'8 1/2" exceeds the length
                                  of the boat by several feet.

                                  Am wondering if that much sail
                                  without a way to reef might be
                                  a problem in certain winds???

                                  I am also curious of opinions of
                                  how to cut the sail. Leech and
                                  foot straight, the luff should be
                                  'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                                  Though, perhaps the flexibility
                                  of the needle thin mast might
                                  be enough for the 'fattening'
                                  of the sail without any special cut.

                                  Anybody know how to cut a Teal sail?
                                • Frank San Miguel
                                  ... I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where I d otherwise be
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                    Comments below:

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > --- "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                                    > > I am liking that mast a lot.
                                    > > What kind of tree is it? :-)
                                    >
                                    > Some species of Eucalyptus
                                    > from a forest near my house,
                                    > not perfectly straight, but
                                    > as close as I could find.
                                    >
                                    > I am guessing, that tree
                                    > wood fibers are stronger
                                    > when they are 'round' as
                                    > opposed to sawn into a board
                                    > with cross grain, excentricity,
                                    > etc...
                                    >
                                    > I am frankly shocked to see that
                                    > the specified mast height of
                                    > 15'8 1/2" exceeds the length
                                    > of the boat by several feet.
                                    >
                                    > Am wondering if that much sail
                                    > without a way to reef might be
                                    > a problem in certain winds???

                                    I like a sail that can reef - it lets me sail safely in conditions
                                    where I would otherwise have to go home. Or lets me get home where
                                    I'd otherwise be stuck on the beach! :-)

                                    > I am also curious of opinions of
                                    > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                                    > foot straight, the luff should be
                                    > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                                    > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                                    > of the needle thin mast might
                                    > be enough for the 'fattening'
                                    > of the sail without any special cut.

                                    I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
                                    spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
                                    mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
                                    upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
                                    that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
                                    timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

                                    I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
                                    and my AF-3 sail has both:
                                    1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
                                    do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
                                    you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
                                    pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
                                    2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
                                    the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
                                    gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
                                    blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
                                    part when you heel low.

                                    So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
                                    cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
                                    orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
                                    any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
                                    read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
                                    Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
                                    info.

                                    Frank
                                  • welshman@ptialaska.net
                                    Bruce Check out http://www.sailcut.com/ for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels HJ ... From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 01
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                      Bruce

                                      Check out

                                      http://www.sailcut.com/

                                      for free program to give the shape and cut of the panels

                                      HJ

                                      Original Message:
                                      -----------------
                                      From: Frank San Miguel sanmi@...
                                      Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:03:14 -0000
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Bruce's teal mast



                                      > I am also curious of opinions of
                                      > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                                      > foot straight, the luff should be
                                      > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                                      > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                                      > of the needle thin mast might
                                      > be enough for the 'fattening'
                                      > of the sail without any special cut.

                                      I don't think so - especially with a bendy mast. I've found with my
                                      spritsail (Michalak AF3) that if I tighten the snotter too much, the
                                      mast bends and takes out enough of the draft (baggieness) that my
                                      upwind performance really suffers. In fact, I think I read somewhere
                                      that flattening the sail by tightening the snotter was used by old
                                      timers to reduce the forces in heavy winds.

                                      I believe there are two ways to build draft into the luff of a sail
                                      and my AF-3 sail has both:
                                      1. Sew in a foil shape. Michalak writes a lot about using "darts" to
                                      do this. You can also cut each panel like an orange peel so that when
                                      you assemble them, they come out to the right foil shape. I bought
                                      pre-cut panels from Sailrite and love the sail, but it wasn't cheap.
                                      2. Cut the luff of the sail with a slight convex bow. This increases
                                      the draft when the mast is straight, but when the mast bends the draft
                                      gets taken out. Kind of automatically de-powering when the wind
                                      blows. The leg-o-mutton spritsail mast also spills air from the top
                                      part when you heel low.

                                      So the bendyness of the mast probably makes a difference in how you
                                      cut your sail. For your mast, you might consider using the dart or
                                      orange peel method and put in a lot of draft (it really doesn't take
                                      any more time once you start sewing). Before I made my AF3 sail, I
                                      read all of Michalak's excellent articles and then bought "Sailmaker's
                                      Apprentice" The book is worth it just for the pictures and background
                                      info.

                                      Frank



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                                    • Peter Lenihan
                                      ... Bruce, I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef points, and why
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Aug 1, 2003
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                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > Am wondering if that much sail
                                        > without a way to reef might be
                                        > a problem in certain winds???
                                        >
                                        > I am also curious of opinions of
                                        > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                                        > foot straight, the luff should be
                                        > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                                        > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                                        > of the needle thin mast might
                                        > be enough for the 'fattening'
                                        > of the sail without any special cut.
                                        >
                                        > Anybody know how to cut a Teal sail?

                                        Bruce,
                                        I built a SURF many many moons ago and recall going to a local
                                        sailmaker.He wanted to know all sorts of things like,how come no reef
                                        points, and why the sail on the plans appeared to be cut rather
                                        flat.He also wanted to know how much the mast will bend.
                                        I knew even less then,than I do today about sails and figured I
                                        get the answers from the "horse's mouth". So,I called Bolger(these
                                        were in the days when he actually posted a phone number with his
                                        study plans).He picked up on the second ring.After some very light
                                        chit-chat,I put my sailmakers questions to him.With an economy of
                                        words that has to be heard to be appreciated,Bolger replied,in
                                        brief,cut the sail to the dimensions on the plans;do not try to guess
                                        mast bend since it varies according to building method and wood
                                        species and no reef points;the boat was not designed to be used in
                                        winds that would require reef points;if your sailmaker can't do
                                        it,then order the one available from Bondhle(sp).
                                        Sure 'nough,my sailmaker said he couldn't do it.I order may sail
                                        and used the SURF for several years with great satisfaction and
                                        happiness.Always respected the small craft warnings too,since I was
                                        convinced they were just for me :-)
                                        The TEAL is even smaller then the SURF, and I can only imagine
                                        that pretty much all of the above would basically apply too.

                                        Sincerely,
                                        Peter Lenihan
                                      • oneillparker
                                        ... Reefing by rolling around the mast won t let you rig the sprit. Big drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff to allow reefing
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Aug 2, 2003
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                                          >
                                          > Am wondering if that much sail
                                          > without a way to reef might be
                                          > a problem in certain winds???

                                          Reefing by rolling around the mast won't let you rig the sprit. Big
                                          drawback. Old-time New Haven sharpies used to have brails up the luff
                                          to allow reefing that way.
                                          I put reef points on my Cartoppers' sails. Same rig. They work great.
                                          Obviously you'll need a halyard. Halyards add a lot of stress to a
                                          mast. Bolger specifies mast dimensions for these rigs without
                                          figuring in halyard stress. If you go the halyard route (and I've
                                          sailed my Cartoppers reefed many, many times, with great enjoyment),
                                          you'll want to dimension the mast a little bigger, or, rig up a jam
                                          cleat at the mast head to relieve halyard stress. I use an open type
                                          cleat mounted about 12" down from the masthead, in way of the
                                          halyard. I hoist as usual, look up to make sure the halyard is in the
                                          jam cleat, secure the downhaul, then I can let go the halyard and the
                                          sail stays up. It works like a charm, and tremdously reduces mast
                                          bend. When you want to douse sail, just pull the halyard away from
                                          the mast, the jam cleat lets go, and down she comes.


                                          > I am also curious of opinions of
                                          > how to cut the sail. Leech and
                                          > foot straight, the luff should be
                                          > 'fattened' by 3" is my guess.
                                          > Though, perhaps the flexibility
                                          > of the needle thin mast might
                                          > be enough for the 'fattening'
                                          > of the sail without any special cut.

                                          You do want some mast bend. It will significantly de-power the sail
                                          in gusts.
                                          Cut the foot dead straight. Cut some hollow in the leech to avoid
                                          flutter. You do want draft, and a fair about of it because its a
                                          catboat (no jib to help direct mainsail flow), so cut the luff about
                                          3%-5% longer than the chord (horizantal dimension of the sail at any
                                          given point). That number is gleaned from "The Sailmakers Apprentice"
                                          by Emiliano Marino.

                                          In higher winds tighten the snotter, the mast bends, and takes the
                                          round out of the luff, flattening the sail and de-powering it.
                                          Downwind in light air loosen the snotter and allow the sail to
                                          billow, giving more power. In medium/high winds, downwind, tighten
                                          the snotter to flatten sail and reduce/eliminate rythmic roll (a
                                          scary thing). You might consider rigging up the snotter so you can
                                          alter its verticle position. This gives you some additional leech
                                          control. In lighter winds set it low on the mast, in higher winds set
                                          it high. In real high winds set it lower (but not low) allowing the
                                          leech to open and spilling some breeze, while yet allowing the
                                          snotter to be kept tight, bending that mast (further de-powering).

                                          I bought my sails, pre-cut but not assembled, from Sailrite, and have
                                          been quite pleased with them (although I don't think they cut enough
                                          draft into them).

                                          Hope that helps.

                                          John O'Neill
                                        • uncleralph123
                                          ... Frank What is the beam of White Eel? Ralph
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Aug 3, 2003
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                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                                            > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                                            > but narrow.
                                            >

                                            Frank

                                            What is the beam of White Eel?

                                            Ralph
                                          • Frank San Miguel
                                            I couldn t rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here are some Specs for White Eel: 69 length overall 64 6 length at waterline 11 7 Breadth
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                                              I couldn't rememebr the beam so I pulled out the study drawings. Here
                                              are some Specs for White Eel:
                                              69' length overall
                                              64'6" length at waterline
                                              11'7" Breadth over rub moldings
                                              9'0" Breadth bottom
                                              2'8" draft over skeg ar full fuel
                                              1'11" Load hull draft
                                              11'9" Height overall
                                              9'7" Bridge clearance loaded
                                              Displacement w/ full fuel load: 52,100 lb
                                              Max hullspeed (nominal): 10.76 knots, possibly exceeding with her
                                              slender shape.

                                              Some other neat features:
                                              - something like 5000 nm range
                                              - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                                              - 4" thick bottom, probably having a steel shoe, 2" thick sides
                                              with extra 2" blue foam insulation

                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...> wrote:
                                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Frank San Miguel" <sanmi@y...> wrote:
                                              > > White eel is the same sort of plywood construction as Tahiti. Long
                                              > > but narrow.
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > Frank
                                              >
                                              > What is the beam of White Eel?
                                              >
                                              > Ralph
                                            • Susan Davis
                                              ... Which design is that? -- Susan Davis
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Aug 4, 2003
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                                                > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck

                                                Which design is that?

                                                --
                                                Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                                              • Frank San Miguel
                                                Susan, Its a yet-to-be-designed 15 boat. If you want to imagine it : take a tortoise, extend it to 15 , add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the latest PCB&F
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Aug 5, 2003
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                                                  Susan,

                                                  Its a yet-to-be-designed 15' boat. If you want to imagine it : take a
                                                  tortoise, extend it to 15', add a birdwatcher cabin and some of the
                                                  latest PCB&F styling, add a sail rig.

                                                  Frank

                                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > - a 15' birdwatcher-style sailing beach cruiser kept on deck
                                                  >
                                                  > Which design is that?
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Susan Davis <futabachan@y...>
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