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RE: [bolger] Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

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  • welshman@ptialaska.net
    On this group a year or 2 back some one, and it might have been you Vince, put out a link to a plastic company that had glue for plexiglas and lexan. I have
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 26 3:29 PM
      On this group a year or 2 back some one, and it might have been you Vince,
      put out a link to a plastic company that had glue for plexiglas and lexan.
      I have moved through several computers since and lost the link.

      My thought to was to cut two panes for whatever window hole and glue a
      spacer about 1/4 by 1/4 between them around the outer edge that would seal
      the airspace. This would create a double pane window, which we really need
      around here. Single pane weeps like a plaintif on divorce court.

      If anybody has that link please republish.

      HJ



      In researching window material for Dakota, I was surprised to learn that,
      for equal thickness, acrylic such as Plexiglas has slightly greater impact
      resistance than polycarbonate (Lexan). Lexan does better on sharp point
      impact such as a bullet; however, in the typical boat window thicknesses it
      is still not bulletproof. Acrylic does not yellow from UV light and is more
      scratch resistant. If it does scratch, there are polishing kits available to
      remove the scratch. Scratches in Lexan cannot be removed. Lexan can be
      ordered with a scratch resistant coating which greatly increases its cost
      (already higher than acrylic).


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    • Vince and Mary Ann Chew
      In researching window material for Dakota, I was surprised to learn that, for equal thickness, acrylic such as Plexiglas has slightly greater impact resistance
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 26 3:43 PM
        In researching window material for Dakota, I was surprised to learn that,
        for equal thickness, acrylic such as Plexiglas has slightly greater impact
        resistance than polycarbonate (Lexan). Lexan does better on sharp point
        impact such as a bullet; however, in the typical boat window thicknesses it
        is still not bulletproof. Acrylic does not yellow from UV light and is more
        scratch resistant. If it does scratch, there are polishing kits available to
        remove the scratch. Scratches in Lexan cannot be removed. Lexan can be
        ordered with a scratch resistant coating which greatly increases its cost
        (already higher than acrylic).

        Like Peter, I am installing fixed side windows in Dakota. It is a narrow
        boat, and I intend to use it in the Great lakes and, hopefully someday, in
        the sounds and bays around the "Great Loop". With the only hull openings on
        the centerline, I would hope that a knock down on her side will not admit
        water. The side and aft windows are .236 inch grey tint acrylic while the
        forward windows will be clear safety glass. All sink drains and tank vents
        originate as near the center as possible. There will be flow through
        ventilation via the fore and aft centerline doors.

        Vince Chew
      • Ken Locarnini
        Where do you all get your Lexan sheets, special ordered at Home Depot or the like??? Thanks, Ken ... From: welshman@ptialaska.net
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 26 5:16 PM
          Where do you all get your Lexan sheets, special ordered at Home Depot or the like???
          Thanks,
          Ken
          -------Original Message-------
          From: "welshman@..." <welshman@...>
          Sent: 06/26/03 03:29 PM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [bolger] Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Vince and Mary Ann Chew
          I bought my window material from: http://www.lairdplastics.com/contactus/michigan.htm They sell both acrylic and polycarbonate as well as UHMW and other
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 26 9:25 PM
            I bought my window material from:

            http://www.lairdplastics.com/contactus/michigan.htm

            They sell both acrylic and polycarbonate as well as UHMW and other
            materials. They have adhesives for both as well as tools and just about
            anything else you might need in the way of plastic. I charged my order on my
            credit card, it was cut and shipped the next day and I received it via UPS a
            day later. They were great to deal with. There are lots of similar companies
            you can find with a Google search on "plastic sheet", "acrylic sheet", etc.
            I chose Laird because it was near by.

            The following is from Hunter Marine:

            "All hull port lights are 7/16" thick polycarbonate sealed in place with Dow
            Corning 795. Deck hatches and opening ports Lewmar aluminum framed ocean
            series polycarbonate (lexan). Deck port lights are acrylic and also sealed
            into a 4" wide embossed flange set in 1" of DC795. Note: the use of acrylic
            in the larger deck ports is safer than the use of polycarbonate. They both
            are good materials and have similar strengths. The point impact strength of
            Lexan (polycarbonate) is 200 times greater than acrylic. While this is good
            for bullet proofing it does not indicate the best loading strengths. The
            tensile strength of Acrylic is 10,000psi and for Lexan is 9,000psi. The
            tensile modulus for acrylic is 400,000psi and Lexan is 345,000psi. Flexural
            strength of acrylic Vs Lexan is 15,000psi Vs 13,500psi while the flexural
            modulus for acrylic Vs Lexan is 450,000psi Vs 340,000psi. These are results
            from G.E. on 1/4" thick material and using the various cataloged test
            methods. ASTM D-638 and 790. The thermal coefficient of expansion for both
            materials is the same. "

            Vince Chew
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... If I recall correctly, PB&F usually specify Lexan instead of Plexiglas. I wonder why? *Every* time I have tried to drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic, I
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 27 9:32 AM
              --- Vince and Mary Ann Chew <vachew@v...

              > I was surprised to learn that,
              > for equal thickness, acrylic
              > has slightly greater impact
              > resistance than polycarbonate

              If I recall correctly, PB&F
              usually specify Lexan instead
              of Plexiglas. I wonder why?

              *Every* time I have tried to
              drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
              I have cracked it. I hope [and
              expect] that the Lexan I bought on
              eBay will drill easier around the edges.
              I should learn soon, as I hope to
              start installing windows in a week
              or two.

              I don't really know, but I think
              that more important that 'impact
              resistance', is the quality called
              'notched impact strength'. [ISO180/1A]

              Plexiglas and Lexan have roughly
              similar impact strengths, but Lexan
              has nearly ten times the 'notched
              impact strength'.

              Example ISO180/1 A "Izod" test results
              taken from specs from Rohm Plexiglas and
              from GE websites.

              Lexan: 12 kJ/m2
              vs.
              Plexiglas: 1.6 kJ/m2
            • Richard Spelling
              You can work lexan with regular woodworking tools. You need special blades and drills for acrylic. The ultimate failure strength of polycarbonate is much
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 27 10:09 AM
                You can work lexan with regular woodworking tools. You need special blades and drills for acrylic.

                The ultimate failure strength of polycarbonate is much higher.

                Polycarbonate (lexan) scratches easier. Very easily, in fact, and it's almost impossible to pollish the scratches out.

                Bug spray will completely destroy lexan/pc . BEWARE.

                On any windows that are safety design features of the boat, I would use nothing less than Lexan.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bruce Hallman" <brucehallman@...>
                To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 11:32 AM
                Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


                > --- Vince and Mary Ann Chew <vachew@v...
                >
                > > I was surprised to learn that,
                > > for equal thickness, acrylic
                > > has slightly greater impact
                > > resistance than polycarbonate
                >
                > If I recall correctly, PB&F
                > usually specify Lexan instead
                > of Plexiglas. I wonder why?
                >
                > *Every* time I have tried to
                > drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
                > I have cracked it. I hope [and
                > expect] that the Lexan I bought on
                > eBay will drill easier around the edges.
                > I should learn soon, as I hope to
                > start installing windows in a week
                > or two.
                >
                > I don't really know, but I think
                > that more important that 'impact
                > resistance', is the quality called
                > 'notched impact strength'. [ISO180/1A]
                >
                > Plexiglas and Lexan have roughly
                > similar impact strengths, but Lexan
                > has nearly ten times the 'notched
                > impact strength'.
                >
                > Example ISO180/1 A "Izod" test results
                > taken from specs from Rohm Plexiglas and
                > from GE websites.
                >
                > Lexan: 12 kJ/m2
                > vs.
                > Plexiglas: 1.6 kJ/m2
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • chodges31711
                *Every* time I have tried to ... Don t you have to grind the drill bit so that the cutting edge is 90 degrees ( vertical) to the work. That makes it less
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 27 1:28 PM
                  *Every* time I have tried to
                  > drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
                  > I have cracked it. I hope [and
                  > expect] that the Lexan I bought on
                  > eBay will drill easier around the edges.
                  > I should learn soon, as I hope to
                  > start installing windows in a week
                  > or two.

                  Don't you have to grind the drill bit so that the cutting edge is 90
                  degrees ( vertical) to the work. That makes it less aggressive so it
                  won't pull in and wedge the hole apart. Slow rpm too.

                  Charles
                • dnjost
                  I installed lexan windows in my Micro using a standard wood, plastic, metal drill bit. It was brand new and I drilled at a relatively slow rpm. The windows
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 27 2:36 PM
                    I installed lexan windows in my Micro using a standard wood, plastic,
                    metal drill bit. It was brand new and I drilled at a relatively slow
                    rpm.

                    The windows were then sealed in bedding compound and pop riveted with
                    stainless rivets.

                    David Jost
                  • Bruce C. Anderson
                    Howdy Bruce ... I m just guessing, but I suspect that you were using a conventional twist drill to drill the plastic. Conventional twist drill are ground to
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 27 4:35 PM
                      Howdy Bruce

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows

                      > *Every* time I have tried to
                      > drill a hole in Plexiglas acrylic,
                      > I have cracked it. I hope [and

                      I'm just guessing, but I suspect that you were using a conventional
                      twist drill to drill the plastic. Conventional twist drill are ground
                      to cut through metal. The resulting grind causes the bits to bite into
                      the plastic and pull it into the cut, so instead of cutting the plastic
                      the bit acts like a wedge and forces it's way into the hole. That
                      results in internal stresses in the plastic which causes the cracks. I
                      think. :)

                      Drills to cut plastic are ground differently. They are ground with a
                      flat surface on the face of the twist. I just don't seem able to find
                      the words to describe it more accurately, so here is a picture.

                      http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/trooper/handle/Im000681.jpg

                      If you look closely at the cutting edge of the bit, you will see a white
                      area at the cutting edge of the drill. That edge is in line with the
                      long axis of the drill. The flat surface prevents the bit from digging
                      in to the plastic, and results in nice holes, without cracks.

                      It's pretty easy to make a drill for plastic, just take a conventional
                      twist drill, and carefully grind the cutting edges flat. Inexpensive
                      drills work great, since even the cheapest drill is more than tough
                      enough to cut plastic.

                      I could get a better photo if you like.

                      See Ya

                      Have Fun

                      Bruce

                      http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
                    • Lincoln Ross
                      The usual solvent glues, easily available, work wonderfully well on acrylic (given a good fit) but tend to make polycarbonate (i.e. lexan) crack. If you make
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 27 10:06 PM
                        The usual solvent glues, easily available, work wonderfully well on
                        acrylic (given a good fit) but tend to make polycarbonate (i.e. lexan)
                        crack. If you make sealed double pane windows, make sure you get the
                        moisture out or you may end up with a window like the one in a nearby
                        hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
                        think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.

                        >HJ wrote:
                        >
                        >On this group a year or 2 back some one, and it might have been you Vince,
                        >put out a link to a plastic company that had glue for plexiglas and lexan.
                        >I have moved through several computers since and lost the link.
                        >
                        >My thought to was to cut two panes for whatever window hole and glue a
                        >spacer about 1/4 by 1/4 between them around the outer edge that would seal
                        >the airspace. This would create a double pane window, which we really need
                        >around here. Single pane weeps like a plaintif on divorce court.
                        >
                        >If anybody has that link please republish.
                        >
                        >HJ
                        >
                      • craig o'donnell
                        ... Well, if they re worshippping it, it IS a religious figure. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 28 3:54 AM
                          >a nearby
                          >hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
                          >think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.

                          Well, if they're worshippping it, it IS a religious figure.
                          --
                          Craig O'Donnell
                          Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
                          <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
                          The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
                          The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
                          Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
                          American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
                          Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
                          _________________________________

                          -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
                          -- Macintosh kinda guy
                          Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
                          _________________________________
                          ---
                          [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
                        • Harry James
                          Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it would on a a cool
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 28 9:01 AM
                            Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
                            warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
                            would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
                            in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
                            condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
                            what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
                            to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
                            volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
                            glue it together.

                            craig o'donnell wrote:

                            >>a nearby
                            >>hospital which is being visited by thousands of people because they
                            >>think the condensation inside looks like a religious figure.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >Well, if they're worshippping it, it IS a religious figure.
                            >
                            >
                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... Do you do your grinding with a bench grinder? or with a hand file? or with a grinding stone?
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 28 9:18 AM
                              --- "Bruce C. Anderson" <bcanderson@c...>
                              > It's pretty easy to make a drill
                              > for plastic, just take a conventional
                              > twist drill, and carefully grind the
                              > cutting edges flat. Inexpensive

                              Do you do your 'grinding' with a
                              bench grinder? or with a hand file?
                              or with a grinding stone?
                            • Bruce C. Anderson
                              Howdy ... I use a bench grinder. My Father showed me how to sharpen drill bits on a bench grinder years ago. So I was comfortable grinding some of my cheaper
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 28 2:32 PM
                                Howdy

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows
                                >
                                > Do you do your 'grinding' with a
                                > bench grinder? or with a hand file?
                                > or with a grinding stone?

                                I use a bench grinder. My Father showed me how to sharpen drill bits on
                                a bench grinder years ago. So I was comfortable grinding some of my
                                cheaper drills for plastic. :)

                                Good Luck

                                See Ya

                                Have Fun

                                Bruce

                                http://myweb.cableone.net/bcanderson/
                              • Mike Walsh
                                What I have used to put holes in plexiglas before was a cheap (disposable) soldering iron. You can get one of these at radio shack for about $6. Use the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 28 9:35 PM
                                  What I have used to put holes in plexiglas before was a cheap
                                  (disposable) soldering iron.

                                  You can get one of these at radio shack for about $6.

                                  Use the "pencil type".

                                  Alternatively, you could use a nail of the right diameter held with
                                  vice grips and heated red hot with a propane torch.
                                • Lincoln Ross
                                  It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon, nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and moisture. I think most
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 29 6:58 PM
                                    It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
                                    nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
                                    moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
                                    cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
                                    be extra paranoid.
                                    I lost track of who wrote:

                                    >
                                    >Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
                                    >warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
                                    >would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
                                    >in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
                                    >condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
                                    >what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
                                    >to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
                                    >volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
                                    >glue it together.
                                    >
                                  • fountainb@switch.aust.com
                                    ... Some people also say you should dip the bit into water regularly to keep it cool. If the plastic melts it jams the bit. Bruce Fountain Senior Software
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 29 7:12 PM
                                      chodges31711 wrote:
                                      > Don't you have to grind the drill bit so that the cutting edge is 90
                                      > degrees ( vertical) to the work. That makes it less aggressive so it
                                      > won't pull in and wedge the hole apart. Slow rpm too.

                                      Some people also say you should dip the bit into water
                                      regularly to keep it cool. If the plastic melts it jams
                                      the bit.

                                      Bruce Fountain
                                      Senior Software Engineer
                                      Union Switch & Signal
                                      Perth, Western Australia
                                    • James Meloy
                                      Don t know if this will help but the business jet aircraft that I worked on in a previous life had a single vent for the space between window panels with a
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 3, 2003
                                        Don't know if this will help but the business jet aircraft that I worked on in a previous life had a single vent for the space between window panels with a small plastic see through canister of drying silica attached much like an inline filter. The silica when red and "full" of moisture, could be emptied and dried on a cookie sheet in a warm oven to rejuvinate it back to its blue "dry" state.

                                        Best to ya, Jim
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Lincoln Ross
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:58 PM
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


                                        It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
                                        nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
                                        moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
                                        cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
                                        be extra paranoid.
                                        I lost track of who wrote:

                                        >
                                        >Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would the
                                        >warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
                                        >would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it must
                                        >in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
                                        >condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
                                        >what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
                                        >to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
                                        >volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
                                        >glue it together.
                                        >


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                                        - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Paul W. Esterle
                                        You can get bulk silica gel at craft shops, used to dry flowers. I used it to dry some books that got wet aboard. Paul ... From: James Meloy
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 3, 2003
                                          You can get bulk silica gel at craft shops, used to dry flowers. I used it
                                          to dry some books that got wet aboard.

                                          Paul

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "James Meloy" <dreambignow@...>
                                          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2003 9:42 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows


                                          > Don't know if this will help but the business jet aircraft that I worked
                                          on in a previous life had a single vent for the space between window panels
                                          with a small plastic see through canister of drying silica attached much
                                          like an inline filter. The silica when red and "full" of moisture, could be
                                          emptied and dried on a cookie sheet in a warm oven to rejuvinate it back to
                                          its blue "dry" state.
                                          >
                                          > Best to ya, Jim
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Lincoln Ross
                                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:58 PM
                                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: RE: Lexan vs. Acrylic for boat windows
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > It would probably be easy to borrow a cylinder of dry air, argon,
                                          > nitrogen, etc. on the day you glue so you could flush out the air and
                                          > moisture. I think most compressed gasses are dried so as not to corrode
                                          > cylinders. Maybe put a little silica gel or something in the window to
                                          > be extra paranoid.
                                          > I lost track of who wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > >Back to the condensation, if you glued it up on a hot dry day, would
                                          the
                                          > >warm air retain more actual moisture (not relative humidity) than it
                                          > >would on a a cool wet day? And when it became a cool wet day, as it
                                          must
                                          > >in Juneau (sooner rather than later) would you be more likely to get
                                          > >condensation than if you glued it up cool? It doesn't matter actually
                                          > >what the relative humidity is once you have the thing sealed, you need
                                          > >to glue it up when there are the fewest water molecules in the air per
                                          > >volume of air. Might require a trip to Whitehorse when it comes time to
                                          > >glue it together.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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