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Re: Teal plywood sides breaking

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  • Peter Lenihan
    Sorry to hear about your setback.Don t know if this is your first attempt at building but do not be discouraged! As others have said,learning how to repair
    Message 1 of 16 , May 5 5:49 AM
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      Sorry to hear about your setback.Don't know if this is your first
      attempt at building but do not be discouraged! As others have
      said,learning how to repair things is like another tool in your
      toolbox.Also, it can be really nice to get the best plywood money can
      buy.However,if money is tight or nothing good can be found in your
      area, there is another option.So long as you are not in a rush,then
      time can be your friend.Using the "spanish windless" trick with
      ropes,SLOWLY bring the two halves together while keeping a few
      rags/old towels drapped over the point of greatest curvature.These
      towels will be kept soaked with boiling water(say every half hour or
      so,you pour the contents of one kettle over the towels).The wood will
      become limber enough to gradually take the gentle curve of TEALs
      sides.Don't rush it! This may take up a days worth of your time but
      this time could be used to either continue assembling the other
      parts,working on the spars,or doing the leeboard/rudder.
      Once you do manage to bring the two halves together,remove the towels
      so that the sides lay fair against the center frame.Let things dry
      out for a few days before doing any gluing or epoxy work in that
      specific area.
      Once finished, a nice drapping of fiberglass cloth set in epoxy over
      the outside will help protect the"cheap" plywood to some extent.
      I hope this boat building experience works out for you and inspires
      other boats! And never fear,no matter how many boats you build,you
      will always have mistakes to deal with,they just won't always be the
      same ones :-)
      Sincerely,
      Peter Lenihan,who could fill a book with his own mistakes,from along
      the shores of the St.Lawrence.......




      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "play1959" <larryh@n...> wrote:
      > When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
      > plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this
    • Wayne Farris
      I think the best advice given is to use 1/4 inch plywood where it is specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer takes that into account
      Message 2 of 16 , May 5 6:15 AM
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        I think the best advice given is to use 1/4 inch plywood where it is
        specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer
        takes that into account and specifies the appropriate plywood
        accordingly(weight is another consideration). Trust the plans!
      • craig o'donnell
        Ah right. I scanned those long ago for Joe s Shantyboat Pages. http://euler.sfasu.edu/Shantyboats/ -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
        Message 3 of 16 , May 5 6:40 AM
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          Ah right.

          I scanned those long ago for Joe's Shantyboat Pages.

          http://euler.sfasu.edu/Shantyboats/
          --
          Craig O'Donnell
          Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
          <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
          The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
          The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
          Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
          American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
          Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
          _________________________________

          -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
          -- Macintosh kinda guy
          Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
          _________________________________
          ---
          [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
        • Hal Lynch
          ... This happened to me when I bent the sides onto my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
          Message 4 of 16 , May 5 9:35 AM
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            On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:47 AM, play1959 wrote:

            > When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
            > plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
            > the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
            > mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
            > instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
            > the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
            > taking a "set". At least not after one day.
            > Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?

            This happened to me when I bent the sides onto
            my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot
            of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
            The side is now nearly fair and doesn't look all that bad.
            Strength will not be a problem.

            Having said that, I would use 1/4 inch ply. if I had to
            do it again. 3/8 on the bottom and 1/4 on the sides.
            Teal would be lighter too.

            hal
          • gssparhawk
            Next time, wet the plywood---maybe even put a little heat to it also (SWMBO s hair dryer). Should go around nicely. ... From: Hal Lynch To:
            Message 5 of 16 , May 5 11:57 AM
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              Next time, wet the plywood---maybe even put a little heat to it also (SWMBO's hair dryer). Should go around nicely.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Hal Lynch
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 11:35 AM
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Teal plywood sides breaking



              On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 12:47 AM, play1959 wrote:

              > When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
              > plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
              > the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
              > mill. Is this a common problem? Should I use 1/4" plywood
              > instead? I removed the ropes from the broken boat the next day and
              > the plywood bounced back flat. That is, it doesn't seem to be
              > taking a "set". At least not after one day.
              > Any suggestions--besides buy a fiberglass boat?

              This happened to me when I bent the sides onto
              my Teal also. Not knowing any better I worked a lot
              of glue into the fracture and sanded it nearly smooth.
              The side is now nearly fair and doesn't look all that bad.
              Strength will not be a problem.

              Having said that, I would use 1/4 inch ply. if I had to
              do it again. 3/8 on the bottom and 1/4 on the sides.
              Teal would be lighter too.

              hal


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            • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
              But the Teal plans call for 3/8 ply. I m thinking that the poor grade plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days) had a crosswise
              Message 6 of 16 , May 5 4:02 PM
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                But the Teal plans call for 3/8" ply. I'm thinking that the poor grade
                plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days) had a
                crosswise void in the inner ply all the way across the sheet, caused by
                sloppy layup of the veneers, and that's where it snapped. :o( If you've got
                to use trashy plywood, try to fill the crosswise voids with resin, and try
                to situate them where they're under the least stress. After building a
                couple of boats using the cheapest materials (AC construction ply for one,
                lauan ply for another) I've decided that it's just not worth the trouble.

                On Mon, 05 May 2003 13:15:12 -0000, Wayne Farris wrote:
                > I think the best advice given is to use 1/4 inch plywood where it is
                > specified. 3/8 inch plywood just wont bend as well. The designer
                > takes that into account and specifies the appropriate plywood
                > accordingly(weight is another consideration). Trust the plans!

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                http://www.boat-links.com/
                Never board a ship without an onion, is sound doctrine.
                <H. W. Tilman>
              • doug6949
                ... If it came from a Roseburg mill then it is most likely real Douglas fir (good) and not red or piss fir (bad). However, 3/8 3-ply is generally not very
                Message 7 of 16 , May 5 6:23 PM
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "play1959" <larryh@n...> wrote:
                  > When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
                  > plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
                  > the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
                  > mill.

                  If it came from a Roseburg mill then it is most likely real Douglas fir (good) and not red or piss fir (bad). However, 3/8" 3-ply is generally not very good stuff. You will have better luck with 1/4" which is usually made to a higher standard.

                  Doug
                • HArry James
                  ... HJ
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 5 6:55 PM
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                    >
                    >
                    >You never stated whether it was ACX or Marine plywood. Somewhere Dynamite Payson makes the statement that 3/8th's ACX has a core that would shame a used car salesman. This pretty well describes any I have seen.
                    >

                    HJ

                    >
                    >
                    >>When I pulled the ends together of the 3/8" sides together, the
                    >>plywood snapped and I am pretty much bummed out by this. I bought
                    >>the 3/8" plywood at home depot and it was made at a Roseburg Oregon
                    >>mill.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >If it came from a Roseburg mill then it is most likely real Douglas fir (good) and not red or piss fir (bad). However, 3/8" 3-ply is generally not very good stuff. You will have better luck with 1/4" which is usually made to a higher standard.
                    >
                    >Doug
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Hal Lynch
                    ... The 3/8 I used on my Teal had 3 equal thickness plies. I don t have a clue what wood was involved. When I bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 6 7:54 AM
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                      On Monday, May 5, 2003, at 05:02 PM, jhkohnen@... wrote:

                      > But the Teal plans call for 3/8" ply. I'm thinking that the poor grade
                      > plywood from Roseburg (all construction plywood is lousy these days)
                      > had a
                      > crosswise void in the inner ply all the way across the sheet, caused by
                      > sloppy layup of the veneers, and that's where it snapped.

                      The 3/8 I used on my Teal had 3 equal thickness plies.
                      I don't have a clue what wood was involved. When I
                      bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged half
                      moon shape. It looked like the outer ply broke where
                      the grain came through the surface. Does that make
                      sense, I'm not sure I explained it correctly. There
                      were no voids that I could see. If I remember correctly
                      the break happened the next day after the glue had set.
                      I was not pleased!

                      Even though the plans call for 3/8 ply I think 1/4 would do.

                      Going real slow with hot water soaked towels on the ply
                      might do the job too.

                      hal
                    • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                      Sounds like you just got a particularly bad piece of plywood. :o( The curves on Teal aren t so extreme that you should need to steam the sides. I haven t built
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 7 1:50 AM
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                        Sounds like you just got a particularly bad piece of plywood. :o( The curves
                        on Teal aren't so extreme that you should need to steam the sides. I haven't
                        built a Teal, but I've seen photos of Payson (and also an inexperienced NF
                        or Int'l Marine office worker) building a Teal, and it didn't look like they
                        had to struggle. Are you sure that the temporary molds are the right
                        dimensions? You might be trying to put more curve in the sides than Bolger
                        intended.

                        Plenty of Teals have been made with 1/4" ply. I wouldn't be surprised to
                        learn that more have been built with 1/4" than the specified 3/8"!

                        Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but inner
                        plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood! Most plywood plant
                        workers I've met (and I used to drink at a biker bar down the road from one
                        of Eugene's larger ones) haven't been the sort to take pride in their work,
                        but even they were disgusted when the plant started using cottonwood cores!
                        I don't know if they still do, one of the worst offenders shut down, but
                        many plywood mills used to pay the people who laid up the sheets by
                        piecework, or at least gave bonuses above their wages for high production.
                        Some teams of three or four workers would turn out incredible numbers of
                        sheets per shift and get mentioned in the newspaper. What got mentioned less
                        in the papers was that some of the teams prepared for work by getting
                        cranked up on meth, "blue collar cocaine". Needless to say, the quest for
                        speed, and in some cases the use of speed, didn't do much for the quality of
                        the plywood...

                        On Tue, 06 May 2003 08:54:21 -0600, Hal wrote:
                        > The 3/8 I used on my Teal had 3 equal thickness plies.
                        > I don't have a clue what wood was involved. When I
                        > bent the plywood the break was sort of a jagged half
                        > moon shape. It looked like the outer ply broke where
                        > the grain came through the surface. Does that make
                        > sense, I'm not sure I explained it correctly. There
                        > were no voids that I could see. If I remember correctly
                        > the break happened the next day after the glue had set.
                        > I was not pleased!
                        >
                        > Even though the plans call for 3/8 ply I think 1/4 would do.
                        >
                        > Going real slow with hot water soaked towels on the ply
                        > might do the job too.

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        http://www.boat-links.com/
                        A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on.
                        <William Burroughs>
                      • Chris Crandall
                        ... My Teal is nominal 1/4 inch, it s plenty. ... There is nothing wrong with cottonwood, per se. It s a decent hardwood, under the right circumstances. The
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 8 2:06 PM
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                          > From: jhkohnen@...
                          > Subject: Re: Re: Teal plywood sides breaking
                          >
                          > Plenty of Teals have been made with 1/4" ply. I wouldn't be surprised to
                          > learn that more have been built with 1/4" than the specified 3/8"!


                          My Teal is nominal 1/4 inch, it's plenty.

                          > Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but
                          > inner plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood!

                          There is nothing wrong with cottonwood, per se. It's a decent hardwood,
                          under the right circumstances. The "cotton" does not refer to the lumber,
                          which dries out quite hard and strong. It refers to the "cotton" which
                          the tree releases, which plug up air intake vents, radiators, and air
                          conditioning units. The trees themselves, when very old,or very young.
                          can be quite handsome.

                          I wouldn't put it in fir plywood myself, in large part because it has very
                          low rot resistance.
                        • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                          Cottonwood isn t much good for structural stuff, it s not rot resistant at all, it s not strong and it s brittle (go down by the river after a wind storm and
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 9 11:38 PM
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                            Cottonwood isn't much good for structural stuff, it's not rot resistant at
                            all, it's not strong and it's brittle (go down by the river after a wind
                            storm and see all the broken cottonwood limbs, or even trunks). Around here
                            they used to make excelsior out of the black cottonwood ("ba'm") trees, and
                            of course used them to fire steamboats, but that's all it was considered
                            good for. Now they're growing hydbrids and cultivars of other kinds of
                            cottonwoods (though they usually call them "poplars") for pulp and,
                            apparently, plywood too. Soaked with glue, and as a filler to keep the outer
                            plies apart, it might be fine, but I wouldn't want it in a boat. Actually,
                            when the plywood mill workers told me about it, I thought it was a good idea
                            for most applications, since cottonwood trees grow so fast.

                            I'm not one of those people with an irrational dislike of cottonwood trees
                            (they exist, and years ago one of them got to be responsible for the trees
                            in Eugene's parks! fortunately, someone noticed before too much damage was
                            done). I even planted some sterile male clone eastern cottonwoods in my
                            front yard for shade! I like the rustle of the leaves in the breeze. <g>

                            On Thu, 8 May 2003 16:06:26 -0500 (CDT), Chris Crandall wrote:
                            > My Teal is nominal 1/4 inch, it's plenty.
                            >
                            > > Some Douglas Fir plywood is made nowadays with fir outer plies, but
                            > > inner plies of whatever they can get cheap, even cottonwood!
                            >
                            > There is nothing wrong with cottonwood, per se. It's a decent hardwood,
                            > under the right circumstances. The "cotton" does not refer to the lumber,
                            > which dries out quite hard and strong. It refers to the "cotton" which
                            > the tree releases, which plug up air intake vents, radiators, and air
                            > conditioning units. The trees themselves, when very old,or very young.
                            > can be quite handsome.
                            >
                            > I wouldn't put it in fir plywood myself, in large part because it has very
                            > low rot resistance.

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.
                            <Mark Twain>
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