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Re: [bolger] PL Experience

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  • craig o'donnell
    ... Ah, thanks for the report. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats The Proa FAQ
    Message 1 of 16 , May 4 5:14 AM
      > I'm sold on PL.
      >
      > I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
      >I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
      >Monday.

      Ah, thanks for the report.
      --
      Craig O'Donnell
      Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
      <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
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      Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
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      _________________________________

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    • ez duzit
      Hi,I`m a newbie to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to build a 6 Hour canoe this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks cecil craig
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4 9:42 AM
        Hi,I`m a "newbie" to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to build a "6 Hour canoe" this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks cecil

        craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
        >
        > I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape but
        >I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
        >Monday.



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      • welshman@ptialaska.net
        PL is PL Premium a construction glue that comes in yellow and black tubes that work in caulking guns. It is a lot easier to use than epoxy, just grab the gun
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4 2:32 PM
          PL is PL Premium a construction glue that comes in yellow and black tubes
          that work in caulking guns. It is a lot easier to use than epoxy, just grab
          the gun and squirt.

          Fritz Funk (my neighbor) at

          http://www.alaska.net/~fritzf/Boats/Boats.htm

          has used it a lot, no failures. See the wacky lassie page.

          I am using it on 2 of the Gulls we are building.

          HJ


          Hi,I`m a "newbie" to the list, what kind of adhesive/glue is PL?Going to
          build a "6 Hour canoe" this month, good for ply and butt blocks? Thanks
          cecil

          craig o'donnell <dadadata@...> wrote:> I'm sold on PL.
          >
          > I have a lot of filling and sanding to do to get things back into shape
          but
          >I will post some photos of the PL joints as I pulled them apart tomorrow or
          >Monday.



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        • proaconstrictor
          What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it s holding together. I don t find this report particularly surprising, any construction adhesive
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4 5:27 PM
            "What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it's
            holding together."

            I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
            adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.

            Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
            before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.

            In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
            the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
            boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
            strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
            up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
            maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.

            Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
            adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
            ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
            ability to resist a blow from a hammer.

            Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
            pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
            spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
            to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
            take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
            you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
            wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
            One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
            possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
            significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
            joints.

            Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
            metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
            You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
            or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
            clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
            out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.

            None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
            could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
            you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
            performance of materials.
          • andy wilson
            Well said! This should be pinned to the boat shed wall and frequently re read! If you can swim and the water is warm [and shallow!] then a cardboard boat glued
            Message 5 of 16 , May 4 5:59 PM
              Well said! This should be pinned to the boat shed wall and frequently re read! If you can swim and the water is warm [and shallow!] then a cardboard boat glued with fish paste makes sense.........however,far out at sea on a falling glass you may wish you had chosen something else............Andy

              proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:"What more does glue have to do but out last the materials it's
              holding together."

              I don't find this report particularly surprising, any construction
              adhesive would have done the same, unless water was a big issue.

              Basicaly the expectation of a good glue is that the wood breaks
              before the glue. I think fish paste would do this. Big deal.

              In your situation, the structural issue I imagine would be whether
              the seats play an essential part in the overall structure of the
              boat. In some boats the furniture is an essential element in the
              strength of the boat. On the other hand if it is just holding itself
              up like a gloryfied love seat then construction grade materials with
              maintenance characteristics you feel comfortible with should be fine.

              Where the joint is structural, destruction tests aren't always
              adequate. The forces applied to the boat are long term. A bulkhead's
              ability to resist over years is completely different than it's
              ability to resist a blow from a hammer.

              Also, when one takes something apart of course one tries to pry
              pieces apart along their lines of greatest weakness, for instance
              spliting the plywood around the glue. But when aligning the materials
              to bear loads its the opposite, you try to place them so they will
              take the biggest loads possible. Wood splits esily, and the loads
              you applied split with the grain. Good structure aligns loads with
              wood's strengths, endgrain compresion, and in line with the grain.
              One tries to distribute loads as broadly as possible, and where
              possible as shear loads to the glue joints. If these loads are
              significant and persistant, they will severely test the glue in the
              joints.

              Take a hurricane clip, or any similar little piece of Strongtie
              metal. You can get your claw in under that and pull it off easily.
              You might say, "it pulled ou real easy, why not use non-code nails,
              or plastic ones, they could hardly pull out any easier". But the
              clips are loaded tranverse to the nail, and how easily the nail pulls
              out is irrelevant, how easily the heads shear off matters a lot.

              None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
              could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
              you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
              performance of materials.


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            • Jeff Blunck
              I have the pictures on my website and I think you ll have to agree that the PL made a very strong joint. http://4dw.net/cosailor I do not wish to get into any
              Message 6 of 16 , May 4 6:00 PM
                I have the pictures on my website and I think you'll have to agree that the
                PL made a very strong joint.

                http://4dw.net/cosailor

                I do not wish to get into any discussion as to the merits or the
                construction methods using PL Premium. In my opinion it has a place in boat
                building. Maybe not everywhere but certainly a good deal of the gluing one
                does when building boats.

                Jeff
                >
                > None of this has anything to do with your specific application. It
                > could be quite strong enough. I just don't draw the same conclusion
                > you do about what tearing the boat apart means relative to the
                > performance of materials.
                >
                >
              • Rick
                Jeff, I had a similar experience with PL Premium when I started my first boat (recently completed). For the framing on the transom I had figured the bevels
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4 8:09 PM
                  Jeff,

                  I had a similar experience with PL Premium when I started my first
                  boat (recently completed). For the framing on the transom I had
                  figured the bevels wrong and had screwed and glued (with PL) the
                  pieces to the outside of the transom by mistake. I discovered that
                  only about a half hour after putting the pieces together so I thought
                  I might be able to salvage the 3/4" ply transom. I removed the
                  screws and smacked the framing pieces with a rubber mallet. One
                  piece did finally come loose, but took the plywood it was glued to
                  with it to a depth of about 1/4"-- and this was after only a half
                  hour!

                  Needless to say, I sawed out a new transom and now have great
                  respect for PL Premium!


                  Rick
                • proaconstrictor
                  ... that the ... place in boat ... gluing one ... As mentioned my comments have nothing to do, except as nature decides, with your boat. The point I am making
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 5 6:46 PM
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...>
                    wrote:
                    > I have the pictures on my website and I think you'll have to agree
                    that the
                    > PL made a very strong joint.
                    >
                    > http://4dw.net/cosailor
                    >
                    > I do not wish to get into any discussion as to the merits or the
                    > construction methods using PL Premium. In my opinion it has a
                    place in boat
                    > building. Maybe not everywhere but certainly a good deal of the
                    gluing one
                    > does when building boats.
                    >
                    > Jeff
                    > >

                    As mentioned my comments have nothing to do, except as nature
                    decides, with your boat. The point I am making is only related to
                    your question as to whether a destruction test is pretty much all we
                    need to know. If that were the case, there wouldn't be all these
                    testing methods like the hydromat, we could just hit things with
                    hammers. The interesting point the gougeons make is that things
                    often fall appart not with the big blow, but a spar just falls over
                    in harbour on a gentle day. Why? Millions of cycles to failure, with
                    each little click of the halyard as the boat sways this way an that.
                    It isn't only the big loads, but also the constant little loads.

                    But again, no need to worry unless there are realy fidgity people on
                    your sofas. Also are these structural? If not, they could be bean
                    bags for all it would mater.
                  • Jeff Blunck
                    ... No they are not structural. I envision this kind of discussions going on as builders debated going from wooden pegs to iron spikes, copper sheathing
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 5 7:54 PM
                      > But again, no need to worry unless there are realy fidgity people on
                      > your sofas. Also are these structural? If not, they could be bean
                      > bags for all it would mater.

                      No they are not structural.

                      I envision this kind of discussions going on as builders debated going from
                      wooden pegs to iron spikes, copper sheathing rather than tar, resorcinol to
                      epoxy, or even using plywood.

                      Time will tell.

                      Jeff
                    • proaconstrictor
                      ... going from ... resorcinol to ... As you know, in the case of a lot of Bolger boats, the joints are around lumber, and the loads are going to fasteners and
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 6 10:58 AM
                        > I envision this kind of discussions going on as builders debated
                        going from
                        > wooden pegs to iron spikes, copper sheathing rather than tar,
                        resorcinol to
                        > epoxy, or even using plywood.
                        >
                        > Time will tell.
                        >
                        > Jeff

                        As you know, in the case of a lot of Bolger boats, the joints are
                        around lumber, and the loads are going to fasteners and so forth,
                        nothing like either PL or epoxy was ever specified, though some of
                        the older boat glues were as good as epoxy in this use. Some of us
                        convert these tack and tape or whatever designs to sticht and glue
                        with some kinds of coves and fillets, and we are on our own.

                        On the other hand, for those who may push the joints to the max, it
                        isn't really a mysterious evolutionary process. From charter boat
                        certification before the USCG, to NASA/GE windturbine program that
                        allowed the Gougeon's to fill a lab with testing gear, there are
                        numbers out there.

                        In the home shop - PL is pretty stiff bodies, and could be subjected
                        to a notched beam test against epoxy. It would be cool to see what
                        would happen both with a pure PL joint, and possibly a PL joint where
                        the walls of the sample where whipped with gorilla glue. Either way
                        my money is on the epoxy sample, but at least we would have some
                        numbers around it. Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,
                        no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?
                      • jeff
                        ... I can t think of a way for PL to cure in a lump other than a lump of foam. I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint. The
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 6 12:36 PM
                          > Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,
                          > no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?

                          I can't think of a way for PL to cure in a lump other than a lump of foam.

                          I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint.
                          The glue expands to fill the tiny cracks and wood grain which is where it
                          gets its strength by imbedding itself into the material. The foam on the
                          other hand is just that, foam and can be peeled away with a finger nail. No
                          way that could be safe on a boat.

                          It must be a tight joint and I personally would keep the fasteners in place.
                          The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
                          being the secondary fastener so to speak.

                          Jeff
                        • welshman@ptialaska.net
                          I have done gorilla glue and a pl glue that acted like it (ie foaming). PL premium construction glue is a horse of a differn t color,(grey in this case). It is
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 6 1:40 PM
                            I have done gorilla glue and a pl glue that acted like it (ie foaming). PL
                            premium construction glue is a horse of a differn't color,(grey in this
                            case). It is like sitka flex or 5200. Thick goo that sets up, fills gaps
                            not through foaming, but because you really slathered it on.

                            HJ


                            > Any ideas on how to get the PL to cure in a lump,
                            > no foaming, and good bond to the surrounding wood?

                            I can't think of a way for PL to cure in a lump other than a lump of foam.

                            I can say this though, PL has no strength at all if it foams in the joint.
                            The glue expands to fill the tiny cracks and wood grain which is where it
                            gets its strength by imbedding itself into the material. The foam on the
                            other hand is just that, foam and can be peeled away with a finger nail. No
                            way that could be safe on a boat.

                            It must be a tight joint and I personally would keep the fasteners in place.
                            The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
                            being the secondary fastener so to speak.

                            Jeff



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                          • Mark A.
                            ... That s different than the smaller Bolger timber chined boats. They seem to be glue based with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, Glue
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 6 2:03 PM
                              jeff wrote:

                              > The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with glue
                              > being the secondary fastener so to speak.

                              That's different than the smaller Bolger timber chined boats. They seem to be glue based
                              with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, "Glue and wire technology."

                              Mark
                            • jeff
                              Yes, stitch and glue is different than big boats like the Wyo and if no chine logs and such are use, stick with epoxy. The two building methods are as
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 6 2:25 PM
                                Yes, stitch and glue is different than big boats like the Wyo and if no
                                chine logs and such are use, stick with epoxy.

                                The two building methods are as different as night and day. To build a 15
                                foot boat like the Wyo is built, it would double it's weight for sure.
                                Adding 1/2 a ton of cedar nailers and 4x4 beams is not such a big deal on a
                                50 footer.

                                Building the Wyo is technically very easy compared to my Frolic2. There's
                                just one heck of a lot more to do and it's 20 times heavier!

                                Jeff

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Mark A." <marka@...>
                                To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:03 PM
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: PL Experience


                                >
                                >
                                > jeff wrote:
                                >
                                > > The Wyo is just as you say, designed around mechanical fasteners with
                                glue
                                > > being the secondary fastener so to speak.
                                >
                                > That's different than the smaller Bolger timber chined boats. They seem to
                                be glue based
                                > with the fasteners added. Wojtec, in Michalak, called it a, "Glue and wire
                                technology."
                                >
                                > Mark
                                >
                                >
                                > Bolger rules!!!
                                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • jeff
                                The Gorilla Glue and other PL liquid types seem to foam more than the construction adhesive version of PL Premium. The liquid types would probably be better
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 6 2:40 PM
                                  The Gorilla Glue and other PL liquid types seem to foam more than the
                                  construction adhesive version of PL Premium. The liquid types would
                                  probably be better for smaller joints for wood working, picture frames, etc.

                                  When gluing oak, I use the Gorilla glue.

                                  I'm certainly no expert but I have used a couple gallons of the liquid
                                  versions and several dozen of the PL Premium tubes.

                                  From this experience I can tell you epoxy is cheaper, actually a lot
                                  cheaper, it's just not as handy and fast to assemble with as PL.

                                  Jeff
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