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Re: motorsailer under 20'

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  • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
    ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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      Peter asked:
      > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

      I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

      It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
      construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
      Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
      ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
      a similar concept to that fictional essay of
      the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
      berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

      Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

      The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
      I imagine building it during a single California
      winter <grin>.
    • David Romasco
      Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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        Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
        head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
        concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
        PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
        right most of the time.... <G>

        David

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



        On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

        > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
        > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
        > no
        > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

        My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

        hal



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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
        ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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          > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
          > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

          Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
        • rgammelgd@aol.com
          I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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            I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
            What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • harry James
            There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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              There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
              When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
              in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
              that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

              HJ

              >
              >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
              >
              >hal
              >
              >
              >Bolger rules!!!
              >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
              >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >.
              >
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                experiment last year, just to learn
                first hand what strip building was
                like. I was pleasantly surprised
                that it was soooo forgiving that it
                wasn't really much harder than working
                in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                I keep coming back to my dream
                of building a Resolution; which
                seems fundamentally simple,
                [though big].


                --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                > I can't find this wonder!
                > I went to the MAIB link

                I saw it in the print version
                of the magazine, which is a
                *must read* for any Bolger fan.
              • pvanderwaart
                ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                  > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                  There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                  into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                  than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                  planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                  together.

                  I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                  planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                  Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                  planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                  such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                  glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                  The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                  surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                  there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                  understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                  fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                  were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                  skill level was less.

                  Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                  frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                  construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                  Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                  90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                  he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                  I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                  are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                  they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                  strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                  strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                  boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                  best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                  rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                  construction.

                  Peter
                • rsmboatbuilder
                  http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                    > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                    it is?
                    > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                    Thanks, Rosalie
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Harry James
                    I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                      is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                      done either.

                      HJ


                      > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                      > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                      > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                      > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                      > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                      > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                      > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                      > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                      > construction.
                      >
                      > Peter
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                      > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                      > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Ron Magen
                      Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                        Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                        Nimble 20 or 24?

                        Regards,
                        Ron Magen
                        Backyard Boatshop

                        > Message: 22
                        > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                        > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                        > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                        >
                        > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                        plywood over
                        > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                        havn't
                        > done either.
                        >
                        > HJ
                        >
                        >
                        > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                        > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                      • pvanderwaart
                        ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                          > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                          > Nimble 20 or 24?

                          Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                          was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                          it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                          some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                          plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                          applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                          doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                          an opinion about the interior.

                          Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                          interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                          I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                          construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                          however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                          the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                          designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                          changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                          topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                          I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                          then.

                          Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                          every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                          can you get a small yawl these days?

                          Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                          without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                        • John S Harper
                          Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
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                            Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                            Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                            in the water but a little noisy.

                            Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                            anchor.

                            To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                            that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                            I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                            (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                            now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                            Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                            bigger; now I want something smaller!

                            Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                            http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                            "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                            Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            cc:
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                            > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                            > Nimble 20 or 24?

                            Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                            was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                            it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                            some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                            plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                            applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                            doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                            an opinion about the interior.

                            Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                            interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                            I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                            construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                            however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                            the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                            designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                            changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                            topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                            I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                            then.

                            Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                            every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                            can you get a small yawl these days?

                            Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                            without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                            Bolger rules!!!
                            - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                            - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                            - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                            01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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