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Re: motorsailer under 20'

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  • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
    ... drawing; no ... too was ... Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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      > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
      > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger
      drawing; no
      > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I
      too was
      > struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

      Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how
      badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines plan in
      BOAOM. Even when I looked back a the lines, I couldn't see it.
      Humbling.

      I wouldn't have considered it a motorsailer though.

      I would say that the glass house version of the Chebacco would be
      about the most accomodation under 20', and the Supermouse would be
      the shortest overall to be considered a motorsailer.

      Peter
    • Hal Lynch
      ... My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D. hal
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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        On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

        > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
        > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
        > no
        > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

        My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

        hal
      • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
        ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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          Peter asked:
          > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

          I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

          It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
          construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
          Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
          ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
          a similar concept to that fictional essay of
          the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
          berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

          Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

          The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
          I imagine building it during a single California
          winter <grin>.
        • David Romasco
          Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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            Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
            head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
            concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
            PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
            right most of the time.... <G>

            David

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



            On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

            > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
            > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
            > no
            > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

            My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

            hal



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
            ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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              > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
              > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

              Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
            • rgammelgd@aol.com
              I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
                What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • harry James
                There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
                  When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
                  in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
                  that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

                  HJ

                  >
                  >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
                  >
                  >hal
                  >
                  >
                  >Bolger rules!!!
                  >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                  >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                  >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >.
                  >
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                    > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                    I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                    I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                    experiment last year, just to learn
                    first hand what strip building was
                    like. I was pleasantly surprised
                    that it was soooo forgiving that it
                    wasn't really much harder than working
                    in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                    would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                    I keep coming back to my dream
                    of building a Resolution; which
                    seems fundamentally simple,
                    [though big].


                    --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                    > I can't find this wonder!
                    > I went to the MAIB link

                    I saw it in the print version
                    of the magazine, which is a
                    *must read* for any Bolger fan.
                  • pvanderwaart
                    ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                      > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                      There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                      into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                      than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                      planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                      together.

                      I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                      planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                      Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                      planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                      such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                      glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                      The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                      surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                      there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                      understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                      fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                      were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                      skill level was less.

                      Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                      frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                      construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                      Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                      90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                      he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                      I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                      are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                      they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                      strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                      strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                      boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                      best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                      rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                      construction.

                      Peter
                    • rsmboatbuilder
                      http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                        http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                        > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                        it is?
                        > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                        Thanks, Rosalie
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Harry James
                        I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                          I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                          is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                          done either.

                          HJ


                          > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                          > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                          > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                          > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                          > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                          > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                          > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                          > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                          > construction.
                          >
                          > Peter
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                          > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Ron Magen
                          Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                            Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                            Nimble 20 or 24?

                            Regards,
                            Ron Magen
                            Backyard Boatshop

                            > Message: 22
                            > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                            > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                            > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                            >
                            > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                            plywood over
                            > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                            havn't
                            > done either.
                            >
                            > HJ
                            >
                            >
                            > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                            > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                          • pvanderwaart
                            ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                              > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                              > Nimble 20 or 24?

                              Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                              was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                              it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                              some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                              plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                              applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                              doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                              an opinion about the interior.

                              Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                              interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                              I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                              construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                              however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                              the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                              designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                              changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                              topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                              I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                              then.

                              Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                              every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                              can you get a small yawl these days?

                              Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                              without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                            • John S Harper
                              Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
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                                Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                                Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                                in the water but a little noisy.

                                Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                                anchor.

                                To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                                that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                                I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                                (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                                now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                                Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                                bigger; now I want something smaller!

                                Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                                http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                                "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                                Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                cc:
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                                > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                an opinion about the interior.

                                Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                then.

                                Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                can you get a small yawl these days?

                                Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                                Bolger rules!!!
                                - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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