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[bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'

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  • craig o'donnell
    Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some camp-cruising cuddy sharpie skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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      Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some "camp-cruising" cuddy sharpie
      skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW.
      --
      Craig O'Donnell
      Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
      <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
      The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
      The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
      Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
      American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
      Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
      _________________________________

      -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
      -- Macintosh kinda guy
      Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
      _________________________________
      ---
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    • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
      ... Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator [I am building one] but I also like the 21 6 motorsailor in the most recent issue of the Magazine _Messing About in
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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        --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
        > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

        Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
        [I am building one] but I also like
        the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
        recent issue of the Magazine
        _Messing About in Boats_.

        If fact, I am finding it almost
        laughable that literally *every*
        Bolger boat I see swoons me again
        into dreams of building yet another
        boat.

        Anybody else like that new motorsailer
        in MAIB?

        P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
        long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
        certainly modest.
      • David Romasco
        Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no knock on PCB, but
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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          Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
          curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no
          knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I too was
          struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

          BTW, I see you're a Texas Dory fancier too...

          David Romasco



          -----Original Message-----
          From: Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> [mailto:brucehallman@...]

          Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:26 AM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'


          --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
          > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

          Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
          [I am building one] but I also like
          the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
          recent issue of the Magazine
          _Messing About in Boats_.

          If fact, I am finding it almost
          laughable that literally *every*
          Bolger boat I see swoons me again
          into dreams of building yet another
          boat.

          Anybody else like that new motorsailer
          in MAIB?

          P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
          long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
          certainly modest.




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        • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
          ... drawing; no ... too was ... Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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            > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
            > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger
            drawing; no
            > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I
            too was
            > struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

            Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how
            badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines plan in
            BOAOM. Even when I looked back a the lines, I couldn't see it.
            Humbling.

            I wouldn't have considered it a motorsailer though.

            I would say that the glass house version of the Chebacco would be
            about the most accomodation under 20', and the Supermouse would be
            the shortest overall to be considered a motorsailer.

            Peter
          • Hal Lynch
            ... My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D. hal
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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              On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

              > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
              > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
              > no
              > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

              My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

              hal
            • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
              ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                Peter asked:
                > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

                I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

                It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
                Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
                ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
                a similar concept to that fictional essay of
                the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
                berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

                Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

                The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
                I imagine building it during a single California
                winter <grin>.
              • David Romasco
                Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
                  head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
                  concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
                  PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
                  right most of the time.... <G>

                  David

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                  On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                  > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                  > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                  > no
                  > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                  My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                  hal



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                  - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                  01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                  ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                    > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

                    Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                  • rgammelgd@aol.com
                    I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
                      What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • harry James
                      There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
                        When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
                        in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
                        that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

                        HJ

                        >
                        >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
                        >
                        >hal
                        >
                        >
                        >Bolger rules!!!
                        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                        >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >.
                        >
                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                          --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                          > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                          I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                          I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                          experiment last year, just to learn
                          first hand what strip building was
                          like. I was pleasantly surprised
                          that it was soooo forgiving that it
                          wasn't really much harder than working
                          in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                          would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                          I keep coming back to my dream
                          of building a Resolution; which
                          seems fundamentally simple,
                          [though big].


                          --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                          > I can't find this wonder!
                          > I went to the MAIB link

                          I saw it in the print version
                          of the magazine, which is a
                          *must read* for any Bolger fan.
                        • pvanderwaart
                          ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                            > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                            > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                            There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                            into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                            than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                            planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                            together.

                            I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                            planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                            Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                            planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                            such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                            glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                            The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                            surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                            there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                            understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                            fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                            were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                            skill level was less.

                            Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                            frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                            construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                            Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                            90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                            he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                            I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                            are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                            they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                            strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                            strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                            boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                            best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                            rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                            construction.

                            Peter
                          • rsmboatbuilder
                            http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                              http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                              > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                              it is?
                              > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                              Thanks, Rosalie
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Harry James
                              I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                                is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                                done either.

                                HJ


                                > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                > construction.
                                >
                                > Peter
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Bolger rules!!!
                                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                                > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Ron Magen
                                Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                  Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                  Nimble 20 or 24?

                                  Regards,
                                  Ron Magen
                                  Backyard Boatshop

                                  > Message: 22
                                  > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                                  > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                                  >
                                  > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                                  plywood over
                                  > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                                  havn't
                                  > done either.
                                  >
                                  > HJ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                  > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                                • pvanderwaart
                                  ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                    > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                    > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                    Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                    was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                    it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                    some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                    plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                    applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                    doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                    an opinion about the interior.

                                    Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                    interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                    I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                    construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                    however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                    the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                    designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                    changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                    topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                    I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                    then.

                                    Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                    every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                    can you get a small yawl these days?

                                    Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                    without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                                  • John S Harper
                                    Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
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                                      Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                                      Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                                      in the water but a little noisy.

                                      Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                                      anchor.

                                      To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                                      that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                                      I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                                      (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                                      now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                                      Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                                      bigger; now I want something smaller!

                                      Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                                      http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                                      "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                                      Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      cc:
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                                      > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                      > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                      Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                      was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                      it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                      some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                      plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                      applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                      doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                      an opinion about the interior.

                                      Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                      interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                      I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                      construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                      however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                      the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                      designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                      changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                      topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                      I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                      then.

                                      Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                      every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                      can you get a small yawl these days?

                                      Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                      without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                                      Bolger rules!!!
                                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                      - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                      - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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