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Re: motorsailer under 20'

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  • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
    ... I don t know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are looking for, but here are some suggestions. Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
      > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA

      I don't know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are
      looking for, but here are some suggestions.

      Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird '86 (22') and the Storm
      Petrel (16' 4") motorsailers. There are original Fast Motorsailer,
      and the better known current version. There is Merlin (nee Marina
      Cruiser). There is the Economy Motorsailer from The Folding Schooner.

      In addition, PCB has been a leader in putting a really good ob well
      in small boats which make some of his small sailboats candidates:
      Micro, Long Micro, Chebacco, etc. The Catfish beach cruiser is worth
      a look. (www.instantboats.com)

      Other designers: You might look at MacNaughton's Silver Gull 19
      (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/silver_gull_19.htm) or Miss
      Congeniality 19 (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/miss19.htm).

      Tell us which you like, and what's wrong with the others, and perhaps
      we can come up with some other candidates.

      Peter
    • craig o'donnell
      Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some camp-cruising cuddy sharpie skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
        Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some "camp-cruising" cuddy sharpie
        skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW.
        --
        Craig O'Donnell
        Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
        <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
        The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
        The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
        Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
        American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
        Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
        _________________________________

        -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
        -- Macintosh kinda guy
        Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
        _________________________________
        ---
        [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
      • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
        ... Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator [I am building one] but I also like the 21 6 motorsailor in the most recent issue of the Magazine _Messing About in
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
          --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
          > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

          Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
          [I am building one] but I also like
          the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
          recent issue of the Magazine
          _Messing About in Boats_.

          If fact, I am finding it almost
          laughable that literally *every*
          Bolger boat I see swoons me again
          into dreams of building yet another
          boat.

          Anybody else like that new motorsailer
          in MAIB?

          P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
          long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
          certainly modest.
        • David Romasco
          Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no knock on PCB, but
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
            Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
            curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no
            knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I too was
            struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

            BTW, I see you're a Texas Dory fancier too...

            David Romasco



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> [mailto:brucehallman@...]

            Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:26 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'


            --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
            > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

            Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
            [I am building one] but I also like
            the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
            recent issue of the Magazine
            _Messing About in Boats_.

            If fact, I am finding it almost
            laughable that literally *every*
            Bolger boat I see swoons me again
            into dreams of building yet another
            boat.

            Anybody else like that new motorsailer
            in MAIB?

            P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
            long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
            certainly modest.




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            01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
            ... drawing; no ... too was ... Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
              > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
              > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger
              drawing; no
              > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I
              too was
              > struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

              Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how
              badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines plan in
              BOAOM. Even when I looked back a the lines, I couldn't see it.
              Humbling.

              I wouldn't have considered it a motorsailer though.

              I would say that the glass house version of the Chebacco would be
              about the most accomodation under 20', and the Supermouse would be
              the shortest overall to be considered a motorsailer.

              Peter
            • Hal Lynch
              ... My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D. hal
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                > no
                > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                hal
              • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
                ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                  Peter asked:
                  > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

                  I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

                  It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                  construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
                  Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
                  ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
                  a similar concept to that fictional essay of
                  the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
                  berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

                  Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

                  The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
                  I imagine building it during a single California
                  winter <grin>.
                • David Romasco
                  Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                    Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
                    head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
                    concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
                    PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
                    right most of the time.... <G>

                    David

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                    On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                    > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                    > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                    > no
                    > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                    My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                    hal



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                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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                    - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                    01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                    ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                      > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                      > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

                      Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                    • rgammelgd@aol.com
                      I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                        I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
                        What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • harry James
                        There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                          There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
                          When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
                          in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
                          that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

                          HJ

                          >
                          >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
                          >
                          >hal
                          >
                          >
                          >Bolger rules!!!
                          >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                          >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >.
                          >
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                            --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                            > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                            I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                            I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                            experiment last year, just to learn
                            first hand what strip building was
                            like. I was pleasantly surprised
                            that it was soooo forgiving that it
                            wasn't really much harder than working
                            in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                            would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                            I keep coming back to my dream
                            of building a Resolution; which
                            seems fundamentally simple,
                            [though big].


                            --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                            > I can't find this wonder!
                            > I went to the MAIB link

                            I saw it in the print version
                            of the magazine, which is a
                            *must read* for any Bolger fan.
                          • pvanderwaart
                            ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                              > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                              > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                              There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                              into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                              than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                              planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                              together.

                              I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                              planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                              Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                              planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                              such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                              glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                              The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                              surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                              there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                              understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                              fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                              were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                              skill level was less.

                              Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                              frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                              construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                              Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                              90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                              he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                              I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                              are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                              they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                              strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                              strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                              boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                              best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                              rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                              construction.

                              Peter
                            • rsmboatbuilder
                              http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                                http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                                > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                                it is?
                                > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                                Thanks, Rosalie
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Harry James
                                I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                                  I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                                  is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                                  done either.

                                  HJ


                                  > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                  > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                  > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                  > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                  > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                  > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                  > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                  > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                  > construction.
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                  > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                  > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                                  > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Ron Magen
                                  Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
                                    Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                    Nimble 20 or 24?

                                    Regards,
                                    Ron Magen
                                    Backyard Boatshop

                                    > Message: 22
                                    > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                                    > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                                    >
                                    > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                                    plywood over
                                    > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                                    havn't
                                    > done either.
                                    >
                                    > HJ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                    > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                                  • pvanderwaart
                                    ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
                                      > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                      > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                      Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                      was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                      it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                      some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                      plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                      applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                      doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                      an opinion about the interior.

                                      Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                      interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                      I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                      construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                      however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                      the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                      designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                      changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                      topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                      I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                      then.

                                      Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                      every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                      can you get a small yawl these days?

                                      Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                      without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                                    • John S Harper
                                      Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
                                        Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                                        Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                                        in the water but a little noisy.

                                        Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                                        anchor.

                                        To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                                        that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                                        I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                                        (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                                        now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                                        Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                                        bigger; now I want something smaller!

                                        Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                                        http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                                        "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                                        Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        cc:
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                                        > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                        > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                        Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                        was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                        it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                        some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                        plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                        applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                        doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                        an opinion about the interior.

                                        Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                        interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                        I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                        construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                        however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                        the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                        designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                        changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                        topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                        I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                        then.

                                        Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                        every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                        can you get a small yawl these days?

                                        Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                        without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                                        Bolger rules!!!
                                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                        - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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