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Re: motorsailer under 20'

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  • dbaldnz <oink@paradise.net.nz>
    How about a Micro Navigator, with beefed up construction and a more modest rig? DonB ... boats
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 3, 2003
      How about a Micro Navigator, with beefed up construction and a more
      modest rig?
      DonB

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>"
      <lvltlbts@y...> wrote:
      > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA
      > all of the bolger plans that i am aware of are for mucj larger
      boats
      > than my needs
      > any and all advise appreciated
      > thanks
      > bottom feede
    • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
      ... I don t know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are looking for, but here are some suggestions. Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
        > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA

        I don't know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are
        looking for, but here are some suggestions.

        Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird '86 (22') and the Storm
        Petrel (16' 4") motorsailers. There are original Fast Motorsailer,
        and the better known current version. There is Merlin (nee Marina
        Cruiser). There is the Economy Motorsailer from The Folding Schooner.

        In addition, PCB has been a leader in putting a really good ob well
        in small boats which make some of his small sailboats candidates:
        Micro, Long Micro, Chebacco, etc. The Catfish beach cruiser is worth
        a look. (www.instantboats.com)

        Other designers: You might look at MacNaughton's Silver Gull 19
        (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/silver_gull_19.htm) or Miss
        Congeniality 19 (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/miss19.htm).

        Tell us which you like, and what's wrong with the others, and perhaps
        we can come up with some other candidates.

        Peter
      • craig o'donnell
        Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some camp-cruising cuddy sharpie skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
          Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some "camp-cruising" cuddy sharpie
          skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW.
          --
          Craig O'Donnell
          Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
          <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
          The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
          The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
          Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
          American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
          Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
          _________________________________

          -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
          -- Macintosh kinda guy
          Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
          _________________________________
          ---
          [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
        • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
          ... Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator [I am building one] but I also like the 21 6 motorsailor in the most recent issue of the Magazine _Messing About in
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
            --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
            > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

            Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
            [I am building one] but I also like
            the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
            recent issue of the Magazine
            _Messing About in Boats_.

            If fact, I am finding it almost
            laughable that literally *every*
            Bolger boat I see swoons me again
            into dreams of building yet another
            boat.

            Anybody else like that new motorsailer
            in MAIB?

            P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
            long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
            certainly modest.
          • David Romasco
            Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no knock on PCB, but
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
              Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
              curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no
              knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I too was
              struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

              BTW, I see you're a Texas Dory fancier too...

              David Romasco



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> [mailto:brucehallman@...]

              Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:26 AM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'


              --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
              > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

              Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
              [I am building one] but I also like
              the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
              recent issue of the Magazine
              _Messing About in Boats_.

              If fact, I am finding it almost
              laughable that literally *every*
              Bolger boat I see swoons me again
              into dreams of building yet another
              boat.

              Anybody else like that new motorsailer
              in MAIB?

              P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
              long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
              certainly modest.




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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
              ... drawing; no ... too was ... Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger
                drawing; no
                > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I
                too was
                > struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

                Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how
                badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines plan in
                BOAOM. Even when I looked back a the lines, I couldn't see it.
                Humbling.

                I wouldn't have considered it a motorsailer though.

                I would say that the glass house version of the Chebacco would be
                about the most accomodation under 20', and the Supermouse would be
                the shortest overall to be considered a motorsailer.

                Peter
              • Hal Lynch
                ... My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D. hal
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                  On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                  > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                  > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                  > no
                  > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                  My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                  hal
                • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
                  ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                    Peter asked:
                    > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

                    I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

                    It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                    construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
                    Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
                    ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
                    a similar concept to that fictional essay of
                    the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
                    berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

                    Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

                    The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
                    I imagine building it during a single California
                    winter <grin>.
                  • David Romasco
                    Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                      Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
                      head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
                      concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
                      PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
                      right most of the time.... <G>

                      David

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                      On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                      > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                      > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                      > no
                      > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                      My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                      hal



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                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                      - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                      ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                        > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                        > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

                        Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                      • rgammelgd@aol.com
                        I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                          I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
                          What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • harry James
                          There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
                            There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
                            When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
                            in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
                            that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

                            HJ

                            >
                            >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
                            >
                            >hal
                            >
                            >
                            >Bolger rules!!!
                            >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                            >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                            >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                            >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >.
                            >
                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                              --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                              > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                              I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                              I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                              experiment last year, just to learn
                              first hand what strip building was
                              like. I was pleasantly surprised
                              that it was soooo forgiving that it
                              wasn't really much harder than working
                              in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                              would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                              I keep coming back to my dream
                              of building a Resolution; which
                              seems fundamentally simple,
                              [though big].


                              --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                              > I can't find this wonder!
                              > I went to the MAIB link

                              I saw it in the print version
                              of the magazine, which is a
                              *must read* for any Bolger fan.
                            • pvanderwaart
                              ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                                > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                                > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                                There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                                into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                                than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                                planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                                together.

                                I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                                planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                                Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                                planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                                such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                                glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                                The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                                surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                                there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                                understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                                fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                                were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                                skill level was less.

                                Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                                frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                                construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                                Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                                90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                                he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                                I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                construction.

                                Peter
                              • rsmboatbuilder
                                http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                                  http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                                  > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                                  it is?
                                  > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                                  Thanks, Rosalie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Harry James
                                  I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
                                    I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                                    is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                                    done either.

                                    HJ


                                    > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                    > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                    > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                    > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                    > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                    > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                    > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                    > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                    > construction.
                                    >
                                    > Peter
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Bolger rules!!!
                                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                    > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                    > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                    > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                                    > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  • Ron Magen
                                    Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
                                      Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                      Nimble 20 or 24?

                                      Regards,
                                      Ron Magen
                                      Backyard Boatshop

                                      > Message: 22
                                      > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                                      > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                                      >
                                      > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                                      plywood over
                                      > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                                      havn't
                                      > done either.
                                      >
                                      > HJ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                      > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                                    • pvanderwaart
                                      ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
                                        > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                        > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                        Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                        was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                        it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                        some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                        plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                        applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                        doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                        an opinion about the interior.

                                        Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                        interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                        I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                        construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                        however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                        the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                        designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                        changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                        topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                        I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                        then.

                                        Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                        every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                        can you get a small yawl these days?

                                        Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                        without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                                      • John S Harper
                                        Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
                                          Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                                          Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                                          in the water but a little noisy.

                                          Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                                          anchor.

                                          To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                                          that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                                          I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                                          (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                                          now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                                          Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                                          bigger; now I want something smaller!

                                          Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                                          http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                                          "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                                          Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          cc:
                                          Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                                          > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                          > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                          Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                          was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                          it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                          some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                          plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                          applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                          doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                          an opinion about the interior.

                                          Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                          interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                          I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                          construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                          however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                          the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                          designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                          changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                          topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                          I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                          then.

                                          Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                          every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                          can you get a small yawl these days?

                                          Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                          without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                                          Bolger rules!!!
                                          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                          - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                          - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                          - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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