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motorsailer under 20'

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  • lvltlbts <lvltlbts@yahoo.com>
    looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20 LOA all of the bolger plans that i am aware of are for mucj larger boats than my needs any and all
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 2, 2003
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      looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA
      all of the bolger plans that i am aware of are for mucj larger boats
      than my needs
      any and all advise appreciated
      thanks
      bottom feede
    • Chuck Leinweber
      BF: Jim Michalak has a number of plans for small boats for power or sail: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/michalak.htm Chuck looking for plans
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 3, 2003
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        BF:

        Jim Michalak has a number of plans for small boats for power or sail:

        http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/michalak.htm

        Chuck
        looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA
        all of the bolger plans that i am aware of are for mucj larger boats
        than my needs
        any and all advise appreciated
        thanks
        bottom feede





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dbaldnz <oink@paradise.net.nz>
        How about a Micro Navigator, with beefed up construction and a more modest rig? DonB ... boats
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 3, 2003
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          How about a Micro Navigator, with beefed up construction and a more
          modest rig?
          DonB

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>"
          <lvltlbts@y...> wrote:
          > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA
          > all of the bolger plans that i am aware of are for mucj larger
          boats
          > than my needs
          > any and all advise appreciated
          > thanks
          > bottom feede
        • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
          ... I don t know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are looking for, but here are some suggestions. Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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            > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor less than 20' LOA

            I don't know what sort of accomodation/performance envelope you are
            looking for, but here are some suggestions.

            Bolger boats. PCB has called the SeaBird '86 (22') and the Storm
            Petrel (16' 4") motorsailers. There are original Fast Motorsailer,
            and the better known current version. There is Merlin (nee Marina
            Cruiser). There is the Economy Motorsailer from The Folding Schooner.

            In addition, PCB has been a leader in putting a really good ob well
            in small boats which make some of his small sailboats candidates:
            Micro, Long Micro, Chebacco, etc. The Catfish beach cruiser is worth
            a look. (www.instantboats.com)

            Other designers: You might look at MacNaughton's Silver Gull 19
            (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/silver_gull_19.htm) or Miss
            Congeniality 19 (http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/miss19.htm).

            Tell us which you like, and what's wrong with the others, and perhaps
            we can come up with some other candidates.

            Peter
          • craig o'donnell
            Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some camp-cruising cuddy sharpie skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW. -- Craig O Donnell Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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              Chapelle, in the 1950s, designed some "camp-cruising" cuddy sharpie
              skiffs with OB motor wells. FWIW.
              --
              Craig O'Donnell
              Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
              <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
              The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
              The Cheap Pages <http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
              Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
              American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
              Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
              _________________________________

              -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
              -- Macintosh kinda guy
              Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
              _________________________________
              ---
              [This E-mail scanned for viruses by friend.ly.net.]
            • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
              ... Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator [I am building one] but I also like the 21 6 motorsailor in the most recent issue of the Magazine _Messing About in
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
                > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

                Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
                [I am building one] but I also like
                the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
                recent issue of the Magazine
                _Messing About in Boats_.

                If fact, I am finding it almost
                laughable that literally *every*
                Bolger boat I see swoons me again
                into dreams of building yet another
                boat.

                Anybody else like that new motorsailer
                in MAIB?

                P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
                long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
                certainly modest.
              • David Romasco
                Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no knock on PCB, but
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                  curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing; no
                  knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I too was
                  struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

                  BTW, I see you're a Texas Dory fancier too...

                  David Romasco



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@...> [mailto:brucehallman@...]

                  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:26 AM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'


                  --- "lvltlbts <lvltlbts@y...>" wrote:
                  > looking for plans for a modest motorsailor

                  Obviously I favor the Micro Navigator
                  [I am building one] but I also like
                  the 21'6" motorsailor in the most
                  recent issue of the Magazine
                  _Messing About in Boats_.

                  If fact, I am finding it almost
                  laughable that literally *every*
                  Bolger boat I see swoons me again
                  into dreams of building yet another
                  boat.

                  Anybody else like that new motorsailer
                  in MAIB?

                  P.S. Not mentioned yet, might be the 24'
                  long Jessie Cooper, a little big, but
                  certainly modest.




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                  01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                  ... drawing; no ... too was ... Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                    > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger
                    drawing; no
                    > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference! I
                    too was
                    > struck by the resemblance to Jessie Cooper.

                    Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat? I was amazed at how
                    badly I had imagined the 3D shape working from the lines plan in
                    BOAOM. Even when I looked back a the lines, I couldn't see it.
                    Humbling.

                    I wouldn't have considered it a motorsailer though.

                    I would say that the glass house version of the Chebacco would be
                    about the most accomodation under 20', and the Supermouse would be
                    the shortest overall to be considered a motorsailer.

                    Peter
                  • Hal Lynch
                    ... My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D. hal
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                      On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                      > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                      > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                      > no
                      > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                      My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                      hal
                    • Bruce Hallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
                      ... I guess so, I don t have the MAIB in hand. It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes, Leeboards on a
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                        Peter asked:
                        > Are you both talking about the Leeboard Catboat?

                        I guess so, I don't have the MAIB in hand.

                        It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                        construction? seemingly on plywood frames. Yes,
                        Leeboards on a Catboat. 2800 pounds of lead
                        ballast (I recall) Bolger mentioned that it was
                        a similar concept to that fictional essay of
                        the 'divorced/ing' guy solo liveaboard in the dryout
                        berth behind the gas station published in BWAOM.

                        Beautiful (and functional) boat, for sure.

                        The boat pictured in MAIB took 7 years to build...
                        I imagine building it during a single California
                        winter <grin>.
                      • David Romasco
                        Hal, I m sure you re right. I ve see plywood boats that turn out to be head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said why bother . It s the concept and
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                          Hal, I'm sure you're right. I've see plywood boats that turn out to be
                          head-turners, and carvel-planked designs that said 'why bother'. It's the
                          concept and the hand of the designer that make the difference. Considering
                          PCB has been at it for, oh, about a half century or so, I guess he's got it
                          right most of the time.... <G>

                          David

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Hal Lynch [mailto:hal@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:59 PM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                          On Tuesday, March 4, 2003, at 09:50 AM, David Romasco wrote:

                          > Bruce, the scary thing about that article is just how seductive and
                          > curvaceous the finished article looks, compared to the Bolger drawing;
                          > no
                          > knock on PCB, but my, how three dimensions makes a difference!

                          My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.

                          hal



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                          Bolger rules!!!
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                          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                          - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                          ... Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                            > It has an inboard diesel, flat bottom, carvel
                            > construction? seemingly on plywood frames.

                            Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                          • rgammelgd@aol.com
                            I can t find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is? What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                              I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where it is?
                              What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link? Thanks, Rosalie


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • harry James
                              There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this. When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize in three d pretty
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 4, 2003
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                                There is no doubt in my mind that you are absoulutely right in this.
                                When he draws the lines he sees it all. I like to think I can visualize
                                in three d pretty good from lines drawings, but every one of his boats
                                that I have seen built have been unexpectedly more appealing to the eye.

                                HJ

                                >
                                >My guess is that Bolger knew exactly how it would look in 3D.
                                >
                                >hal
                                >
                                >
                                >Bolger rules!!!
                                >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >.
                                >
                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... I m not sure I know the difference ?!?!? I did build a strip planked Kotick experiment last year, just to learn first hand what strip building was like.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                  --- "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:

                                  > Not to quibble, but strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV

                                  I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                                  I did build a strip 'planked' Kotick
                                  experiment last year, just to learn
                                  first hand what strip building was
                                  like. I was pleasantly surprised
                                  that it was soooo forgiving that it
                                  wasn't really much harder than working
                                  in plywood. I wonder if my experience
                                  would scale up to a 'real boat'?

                                  I keep coming back to my dream
                                  of building a Resolution; which
                                  seems fundamentally simple,
                                  [though big].


                                  --- rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                                  > I can't find this wonder!
                                  > I went to the MAIB link

                                  I saw it in the print version
                                  of the magazine, which is a
                                  *must read* for any Bolger fan.
                                • pvanderwaart
                                  ... There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend into each other but carvel generally means planks that are wider than they are thick
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                    > strip planked rather than carvel. - PHV
                                    > I'm not sure I know the difference ?!?!?

                                    There are lots of variations on wood construction, and they blend
                                    into each other but "carvel" generally means planks that are wider
                                    than they are thick with caulking between planks. "Strip" means
                                    planks that are about square in section, and glued and/or nailed
                                    together.

                                    I think a big difference is that carvel inherently allows for the
                                    planks to swell as they absorb water; the caulking takes the stress.
                                    Strip assumes the planks won't change shape. Bolger describes
                                    planking being forced off the frames by the stress from swelling. As
                                    such, strip is a more modern construction made possible by waterproof
                                    glues and improved by things like epoxy that help keep the wood dry.

                                    The downside of strip construction is that the whole hull has to be
                                    surface finished, i.e. planed and sanded. (True also of carvel, but
                                    there are fewer seams and they are not dripping glue.) As I
                                    understand it, strip construction got its start in Maine where
                                    fishermen/lobstermen used it to build their own boats. The strips
                                    were cheaper than yacht-quality planking lumber, and the required
                                    skill level was less.

                                    Bolger's Resolution is carvel with cedar ceiling on the inside of the
                                    frames, and he has often written that it is the most pleasant
                                    construction to live with. Not an easy boat to build, however.
                                    Somewhere Bolger wrote somewhere that there is a timber that twists
                                    90 degress between each end and the middle, and that he was glad the
                                    he wasn't responsible for telling Story (the builder) how to do it.

                                    I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                    are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                    they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                    strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                    strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                    boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                    best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                    rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                    construction.

                                    Peter
                                  • rsmboatbuilder
                                    http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63 ... it is? ... Thanks, Rosalie
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                      http://makeashorterlink.com/?V6D952E63
                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, rgammelgd@a... wrote:
                                      > I can't find this wonder! I went to the MAIB link - is that where
                                      it is?
                                      > What should I have looked under? Can anyone send me a link?
                                      Thanks, Rosalie
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Harry James
                                      I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn t done
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 5, 2003
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                                        I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with plywood over
                                        is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you havn't
                                        done either.

                                        HJ


                                        > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                        > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction when
                                        > they don't have any experience with other types. If fitting a single
                                        > strip is easier than fitting a huge panel, as I suppose it is, then
                                        > strip construction should be easier than ply construction. If the
                                        > boat you want uses an other-than-ply-panel construction, then the
                                        > best path to the boat you want may be to expand your skill set,
                                        > rather than searching for a design in a supposedly easier
                                        > construction.
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Bolger rules!!!
                                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                        > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:
                                        > bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      • Ron Magen
                                        Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a Nimble 20 or 24? Regards, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop ... plywood over ... havn t
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                          Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                          Nimble 20 or 24?

                                          Regards,
                                          Ron Magen
                                          Backyard Boatshop

                                          > Message: 22
                                          > Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:54:36 -0900
                                          > From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                                          > Subject: Re: Re: motorsailer under 20'
                                          >
                                          > I would add that in building in plywood, I have found frame with
                                          plywood over
                                          > is faster and easier than stitch and glue, which seems easier if you
                                          havn't
                                          > done either.
                                          >
                                          > HJ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > I am not much of a boat BUILDER at all, but I do think that amateurs
                                          > > are too fixated on the apparent easiness of ply construction
                                        • pvanderwaart
                                          ... Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw it, I didn t like it
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 6, 2003
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                                            > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                            > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                            Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                            was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                            it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                            some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                            plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                            applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                            doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                            an opinion about the interior.

                                            Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                            interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                            I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                            construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                            however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                            the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                            designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                            changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                            topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                            I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                            then.

                                            Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                            every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                            can you get a small yawl these days?

                                            Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                            without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)
                                          • John S Harper
                                            Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot. Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop in the water but a
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Mar 7, 2003
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                                              Well I sailed a Nimble 20 for a few years and I liked it a lot.

                                              Definitely a simple boat. Outboard in a well was great for keeping prop
                                              in the water but a little noisy.

                                              Leaving the mizzen set at night kept the boat from wandering around the
                                              anchor.

                                              To be honest, I had no complaints with the boat except for headroom and
                                              that the v-berth is useless for adults.

                                              I think they did non-cored and foam cored versions. Foam cored version
                                              (what I had) felt really strong when given the push on the side test. I'm
                                              now more leary of foam cored boats but I didn't have any issues.

                                              Truth-be-told I wish I had kept the boat. I thought I wanted something
                                              bigger; now I want something smaller!

                                              Somebody buy my boat, so I can move on to the "next boat." :-)

                                              http://www.ipass.net/sailboat/cp2596.htm



                                              "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@...> on 03/06/2003 06:43:18 PM

                                              Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

                                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              cc:
                                              Subject: [bolger] Re: motorsailer under 20'



                                              > Not to sound like a heretic, but has anybody looked at, or seen, a
                                              > Nimble 20 or 24?

                                              Yes. When the Nimble 20 was first announced, maybe 25 years ago, I
                                              was very excited. It seemed very much to my taste. Then when I saw
                                              it, I didn't like it at all. I'm not really sure why, except that
                                              some of the running rigging seemed crude, the rudder (thin flat
                                              plate) seemed crude, the untapered aluminum spars seemed clunky, the
                                              applied teak trim seemed klutzy, the cockpit seemed bathtubby. I had
                                              doubts about the OB well. Stuff like that. I don't remember if I had
                                              an opinion about the interior.

                                              Nor do I remember being on a Nimble 24 at a boat show. It makes an
                                              interesting comparison to the RobRoy 23.

                                              I do not have credentials such that you should take my opinion about
                                              construction, but they do seem pretty well built to me. I was put off
                                              however by a story told by the guy in the boat at the boat show to
                                              the effect that the boat was longer than the pre-announced length as
                                              designed by Brewer because the hulls (or at least the first one)
                                              changed shape a little as they came out of the mold. I guess the
                                              topsides squeezed in a little and the loa increased by maybe an inch.
                                              I'm a lot more realistic about fiberglass construction now than I was
                                              then.

                                              Now the Nimble 30 is a boat I admire greatly. It is very moderate in
                                              every regard: displacement, beam, draft, sail area, etc. Where else
                                              can you get a small yawl these days?

                                              Peter (who is wondering if the Nimble 20 is a boat that was designed
                                              without regard to whether it would show nicely at the boat show)







                                              Bolger rules!!!
                                              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                              - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                              - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                                              - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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