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Re: Naval Jelly

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  • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
    Hi Mark, Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain t no way it is 24 . Looks
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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      Hi Mark,

      Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in
      action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain't no way it is
      24". Looks sort of line a Really Great Big Bertha Long Dorry, so the
      dory plans might be a useful departure. Though someone knows, and
      will doubtless tell us.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mark A." <marka@h...> wrote:
      > Hello, Thomas.
      >
      > It is actually for oars, so I shouldn't call it a canoe.
      > But the side planks are probably 16" in order to economize
      material and also to have a
      > good depth for rowing. Still, looking at the pix Chuck pointed to,
      I can't quite tell.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/
      > Especially the one with the crew of 8 going fast.
      >
      > I'm just musing that the bare hull might weigh only about 200
      pounds, yet have spectacular
      > sprawl space. Maybe as a switchblade, too.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Mark
      >
      > "proaconstrictor " wrote:
      >
      > > If it is one or the other, then they are sixteen. The
      > > average "Canadian canoe" is 10-14 amidships, your 8-10 inches off
      the
      > > floor, so an additional 14 inches would catch you pretty high up,
      and
      > > make paddling very difficult.
    • Mark A.
      I m the silly one to have led you astray, Thomas. But googling on, Big Bertha Long Dory didn t work. Have you got a flag for it? BTW another boat in this
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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        I'm the silly one to have led you astray, Thomas. But googling on, "Big Bertha Long Dory"
        didn't work. Have you got a flag for it?

        BTW another boat in this class that could be lightly built is Bolger's 25' 6" x 4' 10"
        Special Olympics Bateau.
        Mark

        "proaconstrictor " wrote:
        >
        > Hi Mark,
        >
        > Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in
        > action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain't no way it is
        > 24". Looks sort of line a Really Great Big Bertha Long Dorry, so the
        > dory plans might be a useful departure. Though someone knows, and
        > will doubtless tell us.
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mark A." <marka@h...> wrote:
        > > It is actually for oars, so I shouldn't call it a canoe.
      • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
        I think this is a bad idea if the idea is mostly practical. I have been recently dueling with a friend who wanted to do birdsmouth joints on the spar for a
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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          I think this is a bad idea if the idea is mostly practical. I have
          been recently dueling with a friend who wanted to do birdsmouth
          joints on the spar for a 38' wharram. The only ready supply of Sitka
          we had was 8.50 a Bft, and only in 2x6. To cut out the birdmouths
          required an extremely wasteful scenario that doubled the cost of the
          spar, versus just strip planking the spar. But he had the idea he
          wanted the birdmnouth experience. In the end he decided on a
          different boat. This might not happen in your case, but there are
          three, possibly four sources of waste in the B mouth: One is the
          waste in the joints themselves, two is the waste that comes when
          cutting to a particular section rather than creating a wood fiber
          strip which can work in a multitude of sizes that a BM strip
          wouldn't. Third is the fact that a polygon is an inefficient shape
          versus the tube. Four may or may not be a problem depending on how
          you break out the strips is a taper situation.

          Further issue would be the fact that tubes of whatever configuration,
          with uniform wall thickness (best case if not the BM case) are good
          for keeping a spar in collumn with a stayed spar where loads are in
          compression along the tube. This is not the situation with the
          micro, it is loaded in a cantilever mode, and mostly in one
          direction. Bolger understood this when he built the box section mast
          for Anhinga.

          I also feel that if you must have an octagon, you should consider
          biscuits, and vacuum bagged assembly (shop vac).

          For the tappered plug, jam a ball or celophane covered shuttlecock up
          the tube, pour in some epoxy bog. When that kicks pour in some more
          epoxy, but use a piece of cheap wood like any 2x stock, to take up
          most of the space. The butt end of this shouldn't require much
          tapering out, since there will be little bending there, but if you
          want to, you could jam a lump of styro in there to feather it out.

          Anywho... It is getting increasingly hard to make an economic case
          for a noble wood spar.
        • David Ryan
          ... for what it s worth on the above, the side panel of the Light Scooner are 20 , not 24 16 is a marvelous size because you get three piece from two passes
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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            >Thanks, Chuck.
            >
            >Does someone with a copy of Folding Schooner have a chance to check
            >if this boat has 2
            >foot side panels or are they 16" ?

            for what it's worth on the above, the side panel of the Light Scooner
            are 20", not 24"

            16" is a marvelous size because you get three piece from two passes
            of the skill saw on a piece of plywood. I bet their 16"

            YIBB,

            David


            --

            C.E.P.
            415 W.46th Street
            New York, New York 10036
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            Office (212) 247-0296
          • brucehallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
            ... I have also been thinking about this exactly, for my Micro Navigator. I don t know if I have the best solution, but the solution which I am leaning
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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              > the spars for my Micro.

              I have also been thinking about
              this exactly, for my Micro
              Navigator. I don't know if I
              have the best solution, but
              the solution which I am leaning
              towards is as follows:

              I can buy 20' Doug Fir 2x6's in my
              local Home Depot, they appear
              strong and cheap. I plan to
              bevel both edges of two of them
              using my Skil Saw with a ripping
              guide. I will then sandwich two
              1 1/2"+ wide pieces in between, leaving
              a roughly 1 1/2" square hollow in
              the center. This will give me
              a crudely hexagonal spar, which I
              will then trim some more with an
              electric hand plane, and later
              with a belt sander.

              I plan to not bevel any edges for
              about three feet in length right
              at the mast partner, leaving the
              spar with a square cross section
              of 4 1/2" right where it needs
              strength the most.

              The middle 2/3rds of the Navigator
              mast need to be untapered and round
              to accomodate the 'jaws' of the boom,
              gaff, and battens called for on the
              sail plan. Above the top yard, I
              figure the mast can be tapered
              somewhat, removing mass from where
              it would help the most.

              I asked PCB the question: is the 4"
              untapered schedule 40 aluminum mast
              on the plans 'inside' or 'outside'
              diameter.

              He responded, I quote:

              4" outside diameter; 3 1/2" I.D.
              or, wood stave fir etc. mast like the
              original design, but not tapered. Without
              taper, the stave thickness can be reduced
              to 1 1/4" or 1 1/8".

              I am guessing that after I trim the 1 1/2"
              Home Depot lumber to a rounded cross section
              I will end up with staves around 1 1/4"

              I priced the aluminum tubing and it was
              $20 a foot, $400 total. Fir will cost
              less than $75, a no-brainer decision,
              for me at least.
            • Paul Lefebvre
              Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice..... I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be trailering
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice.....

                I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be
                trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go sailing, and at
                the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller mast for better
                light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a hollow birdsmouth
                mast is the best way that I, with my skills and equipment, can build a
                strong mast that will be lighter relative to other construction techniques.
                My spare time and energy, not budget, are the limiting factors in this
                project and since I build boats first and foremost for my own enjoyment and
                not to save money, if it costs more to buy materials that will be satisfying
                to work with, more aesthetically pleasing, and more durable, then to me it's
                worth it. While I haven't done any careful calculations, I suspect building
                a laminated near-solid lumber mast to plans may be cheaper, but I have no
                doubts that it would be far more frustrating and also waste a great deal of
                (cheaper) material due to the low-grade lumber available to me locally,
                which would force me to waste days cutting out defects and scarfing the good
                bits back together before I could even get started laminating. I'd rather
                pay more for good wood and enjoy the work, as this is my weekend therapy to
                offset the weeks I spend in front of a computer.

                Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug - I found
                the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in and try it,
                I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for a diagram, I
                understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before. I do like
                the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the partners
                though!

                Good luck Bruce on your navigator!

                Paul Lefebvre
              • Harry James
                John, last name unknown jboatguy@cs.com Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about Birdsmouth spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                  John, last name unknown

                  jboatguy@...

                  Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about Birdsmouth
                  spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had similar hesitations about a plug, but
                  he seemed to think there was nothing to it. You might email him and see what
                  he has to say, he has been very quick to answer my questions.

                  HJ


                  On Monday 06 January 2003 07:13 am, you wrote:
                  > Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice.....
                  >
                  > I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be
                  > trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go sailing, and
                  > at the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller mast for
                  > better light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a hollow
                  > birdsmouth mast is the best way that I, with my skills and equipment, can
                  > build a strong mast that will be lighter relative to other construction
                  > techniques.
                  >
                  > Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug - I found
                  > the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in and try
                  > it, I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for a
                  > diagram, I understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before.
                  > I do like the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the
                  > partners though!
                  >
                  > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                  >
                • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                  No need for a diagram, I ... do like ... partners ... Is the idea there that it saves weight, obviously not in your case a concern about saving money? Would
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                    No need for a diagram, I
                    > understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before. I
                    do like
                    > the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the
                    partners
                    > though!

                    Is the idea there that it saves weight, obviously not in your case a
                    concern about saving money? Would not the weight make it easier to
                    raise the long arm of the spar?

                    Also not all my concerns are cost related. You can save money and
                    build a better spar with strips or splines , and there might be a lot
                    to be said for orienting a much thicker strip on the side that takes
                    the biggest beating, which I think is the stern side, judging on the
                    spar for Anhinga.



                    >
                    > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                    >
                    > Paul Lefebvre
                  • jas_orr <jas_orr@yahoo.com>
                    On birdsmouth spars, there s a bit by Gil Fitzhugh about adding strength to a birdsmouth mast in #31. This also describes Fraser Howell s broken birdsmouth
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                      On birdsmouth spars, there's a bit by Gil Fitzhugh about adding
                      strength to a birdsmouth mast in #31. This also describes Fraser
                      Howell's broken birdsmouth (no reinforcement in that one). Fraser
                      has built a new one, I don't see an article about it, but the
                      registry page gives his email as fraser.howell@...

                      John (O'Neil, I think), a.k.a. jboatguy, also wrote up his experience
                      with these spars for Chebacco News in # 32.

                      Both good articles -- these issues are under "old articles" at
                      Richard S's www.chebacco.com

                      Jamie Orr


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
                      > John, last name unknown
                      >
                      > jboatguy@c...
                      >
                      > Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about
                      Birdsmouth
                      > spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had similar hesitations about a
                      plug, but
                      > he seemed to think there was nothing to it. You might email him and
                      see what
                      > he has to say, he has been very quick to answer my questions.
                      >
                      > HJ
                      >
                      >
                      > On Monday 06 January 2003 07:13 am, you wrote:
                      > > Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for
                      advice.....
                      > >
                      > > I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I
                      will be
                      > > trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go
                      sailing, and
                      > > at the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller
                      mast for
                      > > better light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a
                      hollow
                      > > birdsmouth mast is the best way that I, with my skills and
                      equipment, can
                      > > build a strong mast that will be lighter relative to other
                      construction
                      > > techniques.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug -
                      I found
                      > > the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in
                      and try
                      > > it, I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for
                      a
                      > > diagram, I understand the concept, have seen it sketched
                      someplace before.
                      > > I do like the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot
                      and the
                      > > partners though!
                      > >
                      > > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                      > >
                    • Bruce Hector
                      I m thinking I ll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and subsequent rowing with friends fun and games. Should look pretty cool cartopped on a
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                        I'm thinking I'll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and
                        subsequent rowing with friends fun and games.

                        Should look pretty cool cartopped on a compact car, what?

                        Anyone remeber which PB book NJ is in?

                        Will it swing paired oars, or just singles.

                        Bruce Hector
                        Chomping at the rowing bit to stick a Naval Jelly together in time for
                        the 24 April cancer fundraising row. If I recall, the prototype went
                        together in a single weekend.
                      • Bill Turnbull
                        Folding Schooner, pg 227. I think it will look great on top of your car. Bill
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                          Folding Schooner, pg 227.

                          I think it will look great on top of your car.

                          Bill

                          On 4/13/05, Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm thinking I'll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and
                          > subsequent rowing with friends fun and games.
                          >
                          > Should look pretty cool cartopped on a compact car, what?
                          >
                          > Anyone remeber which PB book NJ is in?
                          >
                          > Will it swing paired oars, or just singles.
                          >
                          > Bruce Hector
                          > Chomping at the rowing bit to stick a Naval Jelly together in time for
                          > the 24 April cancer fundraising row. If I recall, the prototype went
                          > together in a single weekend.
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bruce Hector
                          ... wrote: Folding Schooner, pg 227. Thanks Bill, I don t have my copy here, what s the length and beam? 8 rowing stations or 7? Bruce Hector Fighting off a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <BillTurnbull@g...>
                            wrote: "Folding Schooner, pg 227. "

                            Thanks Bill,

                            I don't have my copy here, what's the length and beam?

                            8 rowing stations or 7?

                            Bruce Hector
                            Fighting off a cold, or flu, or pneumonia at home, with no ply or epoxy
                            in sight. Sheeeezzzz!
                          • Bill Turnbull
                            Sorry I didn t get back to you sooner. Looks to me like the drawing shows 4 stations. The picture shows 6 plus the coxswain. Bill
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 14, 2005
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                              Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

                              Looks to me like the drawing shows 4 stations. The picture shows 6
                              plus the coxswain.

                              Bill

                              On 4/13/05, Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <BillTurnbull@g...>
                              > wrote: "Folding Schooner, pg 227. "
                              >
                              > Thanks Bill,
                              >
                              > I don't have my copy here, what's the length and beam?
                              >
                              > 8 rowing stations or 7?
                              >
                              > Bruce Hector
                              > Fighting off a cold, or flu, or pneumonia at home, with no ply or epoxy
                              > in sight. Sheeeezzzz!
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Mark
                              Some pix for those without the book... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 14, 2005
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                                Some pix for those without the book...
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/

                                Bill Turnbull wrote:
                                >
                                > Folding Schooner, pg 227.
                                >
                                > I think it will look great on top of your car.
                                >
                                > Bill
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