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Re: [bolger] Re: Naval Jelly

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  • Mark A.
    ... Looking back through the archives turns up the reference to a schooner version. MAIB V19 #23 Bolger on Design: Naval Jelly Instant Galley. Oh, boy! Mark
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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      > It is actually for oars, so I shouldn't call it a canoe.

      Looking back through the archives turns up the reference to a schooner version.
      MAIB V19 #23 Bolger on Design: Naval Jelly Instant Galley.

      Oh, boy!
      Mark
    • David Ryan
      I think the Naval Jelly well proved the point -- it ain t the hull that costs when you build a boat. ... -- C.E.P. 415 W.46th Street New York, New York 10036
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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        I think the Naval Jelly well proved the point -- it ain't the hull
        that costs when you build a boat.



        >There used to be a photo available somewhere for this 30 foot,
        >disposable canoe. Not even
        >Tim Fatchen lists it now. Any have a clue?
        >
        >Thanks,
        >Mark
        >
        >Bolger rules!!!
        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
        >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
        >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        --

        C.E.P.
        415 W.46th Street
        New York, New York 10036
        http://www.crumblingempire.com
        Mobile (646) 325-8325
        Office (212) 247-0296
      • Paul Lefebvre
        Just a few quick questions for those with experience, as I m about to start the spars for my Micro. I m doing the modified rig with 3 taller mast so want to
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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          Just a few quick questions for those with experience, as I'm about to start
          the spars for my Micro. I'm doing the modified rig with 3' taller mast so
          want to make sure I have enough strength, but hope to avoid back injury
          hefting the mast around each time out, so birdsmouth seems like the way to
          go. Also I can't get good spruce, but have access to nice doug-fir decking
          in long lengths. I figure I'll rip the staves to width and then 'plane' them
          to the correct thickness (based on the proportions published in Woodenboat)
          using my tablesaw, then scarf the sections together and rout the V; tapering
          will be done last. My first question is, will a properly dimensioned hollow
          doug-fir mast be significantly lighter (or at least stronger) than a nearly
          solid spruce mast built to plans? It seems like heavy stuff, but I don't
          know where to find tables on density, etc. to calculate it. And secondly, in
          one of the prior threads it was recommended to use an 8-sided, internally
          tapered reenforcement section INSIDE the mast for strengthening the mast
          around the step and partner, but this seems like the trickiest part of the
          operation, to get that internal section just the right dimensions so it
          doesn't impede the assembly of the mast around it, but is thoroughly bonded
          to the inside of the final mast. So what I'm wondering is if I can't apply
          my reenforcements OUTSIDE in the form of 4 triangular sections to square up
          the 8-sided mast at the base. That way I'd have a square fit at the step and
          partner, then go to round above that. I've considered using ash or some
          other strong, springy wood for these 4 outer segments, but worry that the
          differences in properties may cause troubles long-term in the bonding with
          the rest of the mast, so perhaps it's better to go with the same material
          throughout. I know we've got some good engineering types out there, and at
          least one or two micros have been built with birdsmouth spars; anyone care
          to chime in here?

          thanks,

          Paul Lefebvre
        • Dawn and Derek
          Hi Paul A hollow Doug Fir stick will certainly be lighter than a solid one, but as for being stronger, or lighter than spruce....
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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            Hi Paul

            A hollow Doug Fir stick will certainly be lighter than a solid one, but as
            for being stronger, or lighter than spruce....

            http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/softwood.html

            lists the mechanical properties.

            Much depends on your chosen scantlings - Jim Michalak has an article on
            hollow masts which gives the math. (lookout for URLwrap)

            http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0201/index.htm#HOLLOW%20SP
            ARS

            Your process should work just fine as described. The mast for our Micro was
            built from DF as you describe. In addition to squaring the outside with
            triangular fillets as you describe, I made a tapered inner reinforcement for
            the foot, and another for the partners. Very easy to do. I started writing a
            description of the process, but it really wants a diagram or two. If it is
            of any interest let me know.

            Cheers
            Derek
          • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
            Hi Mark, Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain t no way it is 24 . Looks
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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              Hi Mark,

              Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in
              action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain't no way it is
              24". Looks sort of line a Really Great Big Bertha Long Dorry, so the
              dory plans might be a useful departure. Though someone knows, and
              will doubtless tell us.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mark A." <marka@h...> wrote:
              > Hello, Thomas.
              >
              > It is actually for oars, so I shouldn't call it a canoe.
              > But the side planks are probably 16" in order to economize
              material and also to have a
              > good depth for rowing. Still, looking at the pix Chuck pointed to,
              I can't quite tell.
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/
              > Especially the one with the crew of 8 going fast.
              >
              > I'm just musing that the bare hull might weigh only about 200
              pounds, yet have spectacular
              > sprawl space. Maybe as a switchblade, too.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Mark
              >
              > "proaconstrictor " wrote:
              >
              > > If it is one or the other, then they are sixteen. The
              > > average "Canadian canoe" is 10-14 amidships, your 8-10 inches off
              the
              > > floor, so an additional 14 inches would catch you pretty high up,
              and
              > > make paddling very difficult.
            • Mark A.
              I m the silly one to have led you astray, Thomas. But googling on, Big Bertha Long Dory didn t work. Have you got a flag for it? BTW another boat in this
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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                I'm the silly one to have led you astray, Thomas. But googling on, "Big Bertha Long Dory"
                didn't work. Have you got a flag for it?

                BTW another boat in this class that could be lightly built is Bolger's 25' 6" x 4' 10"
                Special Olympics Bateau.
                Mark

                "proaconstrictor " wrote:
                >
                > Hi Mark,
                >
                > Silly me, but the same point holds, there are like six paddlers in
                > action, some of whose belts are showing, so there ain't no way it is
                > 24". Looks sort of line a Really Great Big Bertha Long Dorry, so the
                > dory plans might be a useful departure. Though someone knows, and
                > will doubtless tell us.
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mark A." <marka@h...> wrote:
                > > It is actually for oars, so I shouldn't call it a canoe.
              • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                I think this is a bad idea if the idea is mostly practical. I have been recently dueling with a friend who wanted to do birdsmouth joints on the spar for a
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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                  I think this is a bad idea if the idea is mostly practical. I have
                  been recently dueling with a friend who wanted to do birdsmouth
                  joints on the spar for a 38' wharram. The only ready supply of Sitka
                  we had was 8.50 a Bft, and only in 2x6. To cut out the birdmouths
                  required an extremely wasteful scenario that doubled the cost of the
                  spar, versus just strip planking the spar. But he had the idea he
                  wanted the birdmnouth experience. In the end he decided on a
                  different boat. This might not happen in your case, but there are
                  three, possibly four sources of waste in the B mouth: One is the
                  waste in the joints themselves, two is the waste that comes when
                  cutting to a particular section rather than creating a wood fiber
                  strip which can work in a multitude of sizes that a BM strip
                  wouldn't. Third is the fact that a polygon is an inefficient shape
                  versus the tube. Four may or may not be a problem depending on how
                  you break out the strips is a taper situation.

                  Further issue would be the fact that tubes of whatever configuration,
                  with uniform wall thickness (best case if not the BM case) are good
                  for keeping a spar in collumn with a stayed spar where loads are in
                  compression along the tube. This is not the situation with the
                  micro, it is loaded in a cantilever mode, and mostly in one
                  direction. Bolger understood this when he built the box section mast
                  for Anhinga.

                  I also feel that if you must have an octagon, you should consider
                  biscuits, and vacuum bagged assembly (shop vac).

                  For the tappered plug, jam a ball or celophane covered shuttlecock up
                  the tube, pour in some epoxy bog. When that kicks pour in some more
                  epoxy, but use a piece of cheap wood like any 2x stock, to take up
                  most of the space. The butt end of this shouldn't require much
                  tapering out, since there will be little bending there, but if you
                  want to, you could jam a lump of styro in there to feather it out.

                  Anywho... It is getting increasingly hard to make an economic case
                  for a noble wood spar.
                • David Ryan
                  ... for what it s worth on the above, the side panel of the Light Scooner are 20 , not 24 16 is a marvelous size because you get three piece from two passes
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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                    >Thanks, Chuck.
                    >
                    >Does someone with a copy of Folding Schooner have a chance to check
                    >if this boat has 2
                    >foot side panels or are they 16" ?

                    for what it's worth on the above, the side panel of the Light Scooner
                    are 20", not 24"

                    16" is a marvelous size because you get three piece from two passes
                    of the skill saw on a piece of plywood. I bet their 16"

                    YIBB,

                    David


                    --

                    C.E.P.
                    415 W.46th Street
                    New York, New York 10036
                    http://www.crumblingempire.com
                    Mobile (646) 325-8325
                    Office (212) 247-0296
                  • brucehallman <brucehallman@yahoo.com>
                    ... I have also been thinking about this exactly, for my Micro Navigator. I don t know if I have the best solution, but the solution which I am leaning
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 3, 2003
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                      > the spars for my Micro.

                      I have also been thinking about
                      this exactly, for my Micro
                      Navigator. I don't know if I
                      have the best solution, but
                      the solution which I am leaning
                      towards is as follows:

                      I can buy 20' Doug Fir 2x6's in my
                      local Home Depot, they appear
                      strong and cheap. I plan to
                      bevel both edges of two of them
                      using my Skil Saw with a ripping
                      guide. I will then sandwich two
                      1 1/2"+ wide pieces in between, leaving
                      a roughly 1 1/2" square hollow in
                      the center. This will give me
                      a crudely hexagonal spar, which I
                      will then trim some more with an
                      electric hand plane, and later
                      with a belt sander.

                      I plan to not bevel any edges for
                      about three feet in length right
                      at the mast partner, leaving the
                      spar with a square cross section
                      of 4 1/2" right where it needs
                      strength the most.

                      The middle 2/3rds of the Navigator
                      mast need to be untapered and round
                      to accomodate the 'jaws' of the boom,
                      gaff, and battens called for on the
                      sail plan. Above the top yard, I
                      figure the mast can be tapered
                      somewhat, removing mass from where
                      it would help the most.

                      I asked PCB the question: is the 4"
                      untapered schedule 40 aluminum mast
                      on the plans 'inside' or 'outside'
                      diameter.

                      He responded, I quote:

                      4" outside diameter; 3 1/2" I.D.
                      or, wood stave fir etc. mast like the
                      original design, but not tapered. Without
                      taper, the stave thickness can be reduced
                      to 1 1/4" or 1 1/8".

                      I am guessing that after I trim the 1 1/2"
                      Home Depot lumber to a rounded cross section
                      I will end up with staves around 1 1/4"

                      I priced the aluminum tubing and it was
                      $20 a foot, $400 total. Fir will cost
                      less than $75, a no-brainer decision,
                      for me at least.
                    • Paul Lefebvre
                      Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice..... I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be trailering
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                        Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice.....

                        I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be
                        trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go sailing, and at
                        the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller mast for better
                        light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a hollow birdsmouth
                        mast is the best way that I, with my skills and equipment, can build a
                        strong mast that will be lighter relative to other construction techniques.
                        My spare time and energy, not budget, are the limiting factors in this
                        project and since I build boats first and foremost for my own enjoyment and
                        not to save money, if it costs more to buy materials that will be satisfying
                        to work with, more aesthetically pleasing, and more durable, then to me it's
                        worth it. While I haven't done any careful calculations, I suspect building
                        a laminated near-solid lumber mast to plans may be cheaper, but I have no
                        doubts that it would be far more frustrating and also waste a great deal of
                        (cheaper) material due to the low-grade lumber available to me locally,
                        which would force me to waste days cutting out defects and scarfing the good
                        bits back together before I could even get started laminating. I'd rather
                        pay more for good wood and enjoy the work, as this is my weekend therapy to
                        offset the weeks I spend in front of a computer.

                        Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug - I found
                        the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in and try it,
                        I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for a diagram, I
                        understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before. I do like
                        the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the partners
                        though!

                        Good luck Bruce on your navigator!

                        Paul Lefebvre
                      • Harry James
                        John, last name unknown jboatguy@cs.com Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about Birdsmouth spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                          John, last name unknown

                          jboatguy@...

                          Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about Birdsmouth
                          spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had similar hesitations about a plug, but
                          he seemed to think there was nothing to it. You might email him and see what
                          he has to say, he has been very quick to answer my questions.

                          HJ


                          On Monday 06 January 2003 07:13 am, you wrote:
                          > Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for advice.....
                          >
                          > I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I will be
                          > trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go sailing, and
                          > at the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller mast for
                          > better light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a hollow
                          > birdsmouth mast is the best way that I, with my skills and equipment, can
                          > build a strong mast that will be lighter relative to other construction
                          > techniques.
                          >
                          > Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug - I found
                          > the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in and try
                          > it, I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for a
                          > diagram, I understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before.
                          > I do like the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the
                          > partners though!
                          >
                          > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                          >
                        • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                          No need for a diagram, I ... do like ... partners ... Is the idea there that it saves weight, obviously not in your case a concern about saving money? Would
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                            No need for a diagram, I
                            > understand the concept, have seen it sketched someplace before. I
                            do like
                            > the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot and the
                            partners
                            > though!

                            Is the idea there that it saves weight, obviously not in your case a
                            concern about saving money? Would not the weight make it easier to
                            raise the long arm of the spar?

                            Also not all my concerns are cost related. You can save money and
                            build a better spar with strips or splines , and there might be a lot
                            to be said for orienting a much thicker strip on the side that takes
                            the biggest beating, which I think is the stern side, judging on the
                            spar for Anhinga.



                            >
                            > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                            >
                            > Paul Lefebvre
                          • jas_orr <jas_orr@yahoo.com>
                            On birdsmouth spars, there s a bit by Gil Fitzhugh about adding strength to a birdsmouth mast in #31. This also describes Fraser Howell s broken birdsmouth
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 6, 2003
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                              On birdsmouth spars, there's a bit by Gil Fitzhugh about adding
                              strength to a birdsmouth mast in #31. This also describes Fraser
                              Howell's broken birdsmouth (no reinforcement in that one). Fraser
                              has built a new one, I don't see an article about it, but the
                              registry page gives his email as fraser.howell@...

                              John (O'Neil, I think), a.k.a. jboatguy, also wrote up his experience
                              with these spars for Chebacco News in # 32.

                              Both good articles -- these issues are under "old articles" at
                              Richard S's www.chebacco.com

                              Jamie Orr


                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
                              > John, last name unknown
                              >
                              > jboatguy@c...
                              >
                              > Who has been a member of this group, has written an article about
                              Birdsmouth
                              > spars for Boatbuilder magazine. I had similar hesitations about a
                              plug, but
                              > he seemed to think there was nothing to it. You might email him and
                              see what
                              > he has to say, he has been very quick to answer my questions.
                              >
                              > HJ
                              >
                              >
                              > On Monday 06 January 2003 07:13 am, you wrote:
                              > > Thanks proaconstrictor for feedback, and Derek and Bruce, for
                              advice.....
                              > >
                              > > I decided to go with birdsmouth primarily to save weight, since I
                              will be
                              > > trailering and have to step the mast every time I want to go
                              sailing, and
                              > > at the same time have also commited to the optional 3' taller
                              mast for
                              > > better light-air performance. Everything I've read tells me a
                              hollow
                              > > birdsmouth mast is the best way that I, with my skills and
                              equipment, can
                              > > build a strong mast that will be lighter relative to other
                              construction
                              > > techniques.
                              > >
                              > > Thanks Derek for encouragement on the tapered reinforcement plug -
                              I found
                              > > the concept intimidating but I suppose I'll just have to jump in
                              and try
                              > > it, I was trying to skip an obviously important step. No need for
                              a
                              > > diagram, I understand the concept, have seen it sketched
                              someplace before.
                              > > I do like the idea of doing a separate reinforcement for the foot
                              and the
                              > > partners though!
                              > >
                              > > Good luck Bruce on your navigator!
                              > >
                            • Bruce Hector
                              I m thinking I ll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and subsequent rowing with friends fun and games. Should look pretty cool cartopped on a
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                                I'm thinking I'll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and
                                subsequent rowing with friends fun and games.

                                Should look pretty cool cartopped on a compact car, what?

                                Anyone remeber which PB book NJ is in?

                                Will it swing paired oars, or just singles.

                                Bruce Hector
                                Chomping at the rowing bit to stick a Naval Jelly together in time for
                                the 24 April cancer fundraising row. If I recall, the prototype went
                                together in a single weekend.
                              • Bill Turnbull
                                Folding Schooner, pg 227. I think it will look great on top of your car. Bill
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                                  Folding Schooner, pg 227.

                                  I think it will look great on top of your car.

                                  Bill

                                  On 4/13/05, Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I'm thinking I'll slap a Naval Jelly together for the Cancer Row and
                                  > subsequent rowing with friends fun and games.
                                  >
                                  > Should look pretty cool cartopped on a compact car, what?
                                  >
                                  > Anyone remeber which PB book NJ is in?
                                  >
                                  > Will it swing paired oars, or just singles.
                                  >
                                  > Bruce Hector
                                  > Chomping at the rowing bit to stick a Naval Jelly together in time for
                                  > the 24 April cancer fundraising row. If I recall, the prototype went
                                  > together in a single weekend.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Bruce Hector
                                  ... wrote: Folding Schooner, pg 227. Thanks Bill, I don t have my copy here, what s the length and beam? 8 rowing stations or 7? Bruce Hector Fighting off a
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 13, 2005
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <BillTurnbull@g...>
                                    wrote: "Folding Schooner, pg 227. "

                                    Thanks Bill,

                                    I don't have my copy here, what's the length and beam?

                                    8 rowing stations or 7?

                                    Bruce Hector
                                    Fighting off a cold, or flu, or pneumonia at home, with no ply or epoxy
                                    in sight. Sheeeezzzz!
                                  • Bill Turnbull
                                    Sorry I didn t get back to you sooner. Looks to me like the drawing shows 4 stations. The picture shows 6 plus the coxswain. Bill
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 14, 2005
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                                      Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

                                      Looks to me like the drawing shows 4 stations. The picture shows 6
                                      plus the coxswain.

                                      Bill

                                      On 4/13/05, Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bill Turnbull <BillTurnbull@g...>
                                      > wrote: "Folding Schooner, pg 227. "
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Bill,
                                      >
                                      > I don't have my copy here, what's the length and beam?
                                      >
                                      > 8 rowing stations or 7?
                                      >
                                      > Bruce Hector
                                      > Fighting off a cold, or flu, or pneumonia at home, with no ply or epoxy
                                      > in sight. Sheeeezzzz!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Bolger rules!!!
                                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Mark
                                      Some pix for those without the book... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 14, 2005
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                                        Some pix for those without the book...
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Navel%20Jelly/

                                        Bill Turnbull wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Folding Schooner, pg 227.
                                        >
                                        > I think it will look great on top of your car.
                                        >
                                        > Bill
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