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Big dory vs. Light Dory

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  • hted2000 <planetre@hay.net>
    Years ago I built the Bolger Light dory I found it a little tender but fast, it s now gone and it s time to build another. How does the long version compare? I
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 29, 2002
      Years ago I built the Bolger Light dory I found it a little tender
      but fast, it's now gone and it's time to build another. How does the
      long version compare? I really want to use tack and tape this time.
      How much does the long boat weigh, and is it suitable for a single
      rower, what are the advantages of the larger dory over the small one?
      Thanks for the help
    • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
      ... the ... one? ... I thought the main reason for the long dory was to accomodate more people and rowers, so I don t think it would be a great single.
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "hted2000 <planetre@h...>"
        <planetre@h...> wrote:
        > Years ago I built the Bolger Light dory I found it a little tender
        > but fast, it's now gone and it's time to build another. How does
        the
        > long version compare? I really want to use tack and tape this time.
        > How much does the long boat weigh, and is it suitable for a single
        > rower, what are the advantages of the larger dory over the small
        one?
        > Thanks for the help

        I thought the main reason for the long dory was to accomodate more
        people and rowers, so I don't think it would be a great single.
        Presumably something could be done to stretch and narrow a 16, but it
        is pretty much already at the point of zero wave forming, so what
        would be the advantage?
      • pibracing <mcerio02@twcny.rr.com>
        Go to this link and read the post that is 17 lines down,It talks about the Big Dory.http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Open%2dwater%20rowing
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
          Go to this link and read the post that is 17 lines down,It talks about
          the Big
          Dory.http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Open%2dwater%20rowing









          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor
          <proaconstrictor@y...>" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "hted2000 <planetre@h...>"
          > <planetre@h...> wrote:
          > > Years ago I built the Bolger Light dory I found it a little tender
          > > but fast, it's now gone and it's time to build another. How does
          > the
          > > long version compare? I really want to use tack and tape this time.
          > > How much does the long boat weigh, and is it suitable for a single
          > > rower, what are the advantages of the larger dory over the small
          > one?
          > > Thanks for the help
          >
          > I thought the main reason for the long dory was to accomodate more
          > people and rowers, so I don't think it would be a great single.
          > Presumably something could be done to stretch and narrow a 16, but it
          > is pretty much already at the point of zero wave forming, so what
          > would be the advantage?
        • pibracing <mcerio02@twcny.rr.com>
          You can buy thos plans from Payson for 35.00. ... Dory.http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Open%2dwater%20rowing
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
            You can buy thos plans from Payson for 35.00.





            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pibracing <mcerio02@t...>"
            <mcerio02@t...> wrote:
            > Go to this link and read the post that is 17 lines down,It talks about
            > the Big
            >
            Dory.http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Open%2dwater%20rowing
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proaconstrictor
            > <proaconstrictor@y...>" <proaconstrictor@y...> wrote:
            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "hted2000 <planetre@h...>"
            > > <planetre@h...> wrote:
            > > > Years ago I built the Bolger Light dory I found it a little tender
            > > > but fast, it's now gone and it's time to build another. How does
            > > the
            > > > long version compare? I really want to use tack and tape this time.
            > > > How much does the long boat weigh, and is it suitable for a single
            > > > rower, what are the advantages of the larger dory over the small
            > > one?
            > > > Thanks for the help
            > >
            > > I thought the main reason for the long dory was to accomodate more
            > > people and rowers, so I don't think it would be a great single.
            > > Presumably something could be done to stretch and narrow a 16, but it
            > > is pretty much already at the point of zero wave forming, so what
            > > would be the advantage?
          • Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@hotmail.com>
            I haven t built her yet, but I ve just received my plans for the Big Dory (after a 7 month delay) from Common Sense Designs (order your s from Payson or PB&F).
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
              I haven't built her yet, but I've just received my plans for the Big
              Dory (after a 7 month delay) from Common Sense Designs (order your's
              from Payson or PB&F).

              She looks like a great row boat. I plan to add floatation
              compartments high up at both bow and stern, which with waterproof
              hatches will double as dry storage. These will resemble the
              compartments shown on the Metric Light Dory Type V shown a while back
              in MAIB. At 19' she's a wee bit big to car top, so I'll modify a
              trailler. Hope to get some great open water exercise out of her (I
              can sure use some, her greater capacity will not be wasted floating
              my, er, bulk) and to tow her around the continent once or twice for
              some great scenic rows.

              Plans look good, straight forward and simple to build. I'll stich and
              glue her.

              Bruce Hector
              www.brucesboats.com
            • Jack&Lois
              I have a set of stretched dory plans. Much more minimalist (is that an oxymoron?) than Gypsy or June Bug plans. Basically zero text. But if you ve built the
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
                I have a set of stretched dory plans. Much more minimalist (is that an
                oxymoron?) than Gypsy or June Bug plans. Basically zero text. But if you've
                built the Gull, the tack and tape stretched dory should be a snap. I've yet
                to build it, but a friend who has built both versions said the stretched
                dory was much easier (and faster) to build and out performed the Gull. He
                also said it rowed very well single handed. Not sure about the weight,
                though. I'd guess about 60-70 kg if you used marine ply and roughly 80-90 kg
                with exterior fir. Neither weight would I want to carry very far alone. I
                intend to use mine for makerel fishing along the Fundy shore, both single
                handed and with guests. I (or we) will simply slide it over high water
                gravel beaches. Maybe flip it over and lean against it's sides while we fry
                fish and sip a beverage of choice. Good luck.

                jeb, still Micro grinding and dreaming of summer on the shores of Fundy
              • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                I ve yet ... stretched ... Gull. Why would that be? Keep in mind that if you are confident building without a strongback, then there is nothing saying you
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
                  I've yet
                  > to build it, but a friend who has built both versions said the
                  stretched
                  > dory was much easier (and faster) to build and out performed the
                  Gull.

                  Why would that be? Keep in mind that if you are confident building
                  without a strongback, then there is nothing saying you need one for
                  the construction of the Gull either, on the other hand if your shop
                  has one hanging around from your last striper or whatever, this will
                  speed up construction vs stich and glue. You do have to assemble a
                  couple of frames for the Gull, so 20 minutes later... Then you have
                  to install a chine log. Ok that is more trouble, 1 hr maybe,
                  depending on how perfectly any wood you have on hand may match up
                  with the piece required, I can spend an hour finding the stock.
                  There is a bevel, but it is just a level horizon with the other
                  side. Nailing and glueing is much faster and somewhat easier that
                  wiring and coving. Though I would prefer to have the maintenance on
                  the S&G. It is never faster and easier (or cheaper) to finish 25%
                  more boat, a definite poke in the eye for the Long version.

                  Enough of the Gulls have been built that if we just had the offsets
                  for the Gull's bottom, it would be S&G for both.
                • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                  OK Specter on Payson s site is selling full size patterns for the light dory, including the bottom. So you can sticth and glue from those, if they are what
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 30, 2002
                    OK Specter on Payson's site is selling full size patterns for the
                    light dory, including the bottom. So you can sticth and glue from
                    those, if they are what they sound like. I say that because it says
                    they include the bottom. That is one thing on a Cartopper, and
                    another on a dorry (because on the Cartopper plans there are two
                    other fitted panels , while it IS the bottom that is fitted on the
                    dory. But assuming they are what they say they are, then you would
                    not require any frames or chines to get to the bottom shape of the
                    dory, and that is all that was missing in order to stich and glue
                    them.
                  • David Ryan
                    ... With our without patterns, if you build the light dory without bending the sides around molds it s not going to quite have the shape that PCB drew. I know
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 31, 2002
                      >OK Specter on Payson's site is selling full size patterns for the
                      >light dory, including the bottom. So you can sticth and glue from
                      >those, if they are what they sound like. I say that because it says
                      >they include the bottom. That is one thing on a Cartopper, and
                      >another on a dorry (because on the Cartopper plans there are two
                      >other fitted panels , while it IS the bottom that is fitted on the
                      >dory. But assuming they are what they say they are, then you would
                      >not require any frames or chines to get to the bottom shape of the
                      >dory, and that is all that was missing in order to stich and glue
                      >them.

                      With our without patterns, if you build the light dory without
                      bending the sides around molds it's not going to quite have the shape
                      that PCB drew. I know this because I've built two no-chinelog gulls,
                      and if you take them off the molds before you fasten the gunnel, they
                      warp substantially.

                      How much it matters, I don't know. But if I were building the boat
                      without the strongback and mold-stations, I still think I'd need to
                      contrive something to hold it all in place while I was glue it
                      together. A strongback w/mold stations might not be the only way to
                      do this, but it certainly is an EASY way to do this.

                      YIBB,

                      David
                      --

                      C.E.P.
                      415 W.46th Street
                      New York, New York 10036
                      http://www.crumblingempire.com
                      Mobile (646) 325-8325
                      Office (212) 247-0296
                    • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                      I agree, sometimes the strongback is faster. But a number of people have mentioned that they would prefer to stich and glue, and that means frameless assembly
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 31, 2002
                        I agree, sometimes the strongback is faster. But a number of people
                        have mentioned that they would prefer to stich and glue, and that
                        means frameless assembly except as regards permanent frames. If you
                        use frames and a strongback, then tack and tape is faster. I think
                        it can be faster even if you use a temporary chine log on the
                        outside, and then cut them back after adding the internal fillet. At
                        least around here, it is no problem, cheaply getting a 16' 2x6, off
                        which you could rip a beautiful pair of chine logs. Only problem is
                        that it isn't really marine grade, but as a temporary log, you could
                        bust it out in minutes with a circular hand saw. Marine grade Sitka,
                        here would be 8.50 a 2x6 foot.

                        With stitch and glue the bottom wouldn't be a problem, but the amount
                        of flair that exist in this curvy shear would be intereting to set
                        without some kind of frame.

                        > With our without patterns, if you build the light dory without
                        > bending the sides around molds it's not going to quite have the
                        shape
                        > that PCB drew. I know this because I've built two no-chinelog
                        gulls,
                        > and if you take them off the molds before you fasten the gunnel,


                        they
                        > warp substantially.
                        >
                        > How much it matters, I don't know. But if I were building the boat
                        > without the strongback and mold-stations, I still think I'd need
                        to
                        > contrive something to hold it all in place while I was glue it
                        > together. A strongback w/mold stations might not be the only way to
                        > do this, but it certainly is an EASY way to do this.
                        >
                        > YIBB,
                        >
                        > David
                        > --
                        >
                        > C.E.P.
                        > 415 W.46th Street
                        > New York, New York 10036
                        > http://www.crumblingempire.com
                        > Mobile (646) 325-8325
                        > Office (212) 247-0296
                      • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                        ... I m not a boatbuilder, but I don t think Sitka is what you would want for a chine anyway. It is strong for its weight, but brittle and not rot-resistant.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 31, 2002
                          > Marine grade Sitka,
                          > here would be 8.50 a 2x6 foot.

                          I'm not a boatbuilder, but I don't think Sitka is what you would want
                          for a chine anyway. It is strong for its weight, but brittle and not
                          rot-resistant. Bolger usually calls for fir. I would think that a lot
                          of Bolger home builders use ordinary lumberyard white pine, and that
                          it would be at least as good as Sitka.

                          Peter
                        • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                          ... want ... not ... lot ... that ... Sitka is the best structural softwood for boat or airplane construction. It is more rot resistant than pine, certainly
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 31, 2002
                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart <pvanderw@o...>"
                            <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                            > > Marine grade Sitka,
                            > > here would be 8.50 a 2x6 foot.
                            >
                            > I'm not a boatbuilder, but I don't think Sitka is what you would
                            want
                            > for a chine anyway. It is strong for its weight, but brittle and
                            not
                            > rot-resistant. Bolger usually calls for fir. I would think that a
                            lot
                            > of Bolger home builders use ordinary lumberyard white pine, and
                            that
                            > it would be at least as good as Sitka.
                            >
                            > Peter

                            Sitka is the best structural softwood for boat or airplane
                            construction. It is more rot resistant than pine, certainly as good
                            as any of the plywood materials comonly associated with these boats,
                            though if one is concerned about rot, coat it. Pine is very weak
                            compareably, and splits easily. D-Fir is a great wood. It is one of
                            the options that one can just walk into a lumberyard and convert from
                            2x stock, though not where I live. The really high quality D-Fir, is
                            heavy, and none of it is as split resistant as sitka. In the world
                            of drywall screws instead of clamps or ring nail Sitka is fabulous.
                            Unfortunately the price has gone up a lot recently, and it is getting
                            to be too expensive for low-tech stuff. D-Dir is a lot stronger than
                            Sitka, which is sort of in second place. But the extra weight mostly
                            offsets that.

                            I would use whatever the spruce is that they have in eastern yards
                            before I would touch pine. It is kinda rubbery, not as split prone
                            as pine, probably about the same in rot resistance, and it seems
                            pretty strong. The main problem with it is quality. But buying the
                            wider stock, and cutting out the middle can yield nice quartered
                            material.

                            Any wood that won't break during assembly, and is sheathed, is a
                            reasonable condidate in my experience.
                          • pvanderwaart <pvanderw@optonline.net>
                            ... I don t have the experience to argue with you, and I should explain that I was not advocating the use of white pine for boat structure. I was only giving
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 1, 2003
                              > Sitka is the best structural softwood for boat or airplane
                              > construction...I would use whatever the spruce is that
                              > they have in eastern yards before I would touch pine.

                              I don't have the experience to argue with you, and I should explain
                              that I was not advocating the use of white pine for boat structure. I
                              was only giving my impression that it is used by a fair number of
                              builders throwing together a Teal or Light Dory.

                              You raise another issue. I once looked over a pallet of "spruce"
                              boards at my local lumberyard. They were about 1" thick and neither
                              planed or sanded. They were cheap, but seemed very rough, very weak,
                              and very limber. Questions: For what use were they intended? Would it
                              be possible for a boatbuilder with a planer to dress them and glue
                              them up into a small boat spar, e.g. the sprit or yard of a 10-15'
                              boat? Would it be a good idea, or is this just stuff to walk away
                              from?

                              Peter
                            • David Ryan
                              ... I use this stuff all the time. Not great, but frequently better than the crap Doug Fir 2x4 s we get out here. Not as strong as good Doug Fir, but cheaper
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 1, 2003
                                >You raise another issue. I once looked over a pallet of "spruce"
                                >boards at my local lumberyard. They were about 1" thick and neither
                                >planed or sanded. They were cheap, but seemed very rough, very weak,
                                >and very limber. Questions: For what use were they intended? Would it
                                >be possible for a boatbuilder with a planer to dress them and glue
                                >them up into a small boat spar, e.g. the sprit or yard of a 10-15'
                                >boat? Would it be a good idea, or is this just stuff to walk away
                                >from?

                                I use this stuff all the time. Not great, but frequently better than
                                the crap Doug Fir 2x4's we get out here. Not as strong as good Doug
                                Fir, but cheaper than crap Doug Fir. Comes in a more convenient
                                dimension.

                                There is no "best", except that it would be "best" not to waste
                                money on boats in the first place.

                                -D
                                --

                                C.E.P.
                                415 W.46th Street
                                New York, New York 10036
                                http://www.crumblingempire.com
                                Mobile (646) 325-8325
                                Office (212) 247-0296
                              • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                                ... I ... I don t think there is any argument possible at the level of better grades of material. One of the big aircraft supply places is called aircraft
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 1, 2003
                                  >
                                  > I don't have the experience to argue with you, and I should explain
                                  > that I was not advocating the use of white pine for boat structure.
                                  I
                                  > was only giving my impression that it is used by a fair number of
                                  > builders throwing together a Teal or Light Dory.


                                  I don't think there is any argument possible at the level of better
                                  grades of material. One of the big aircraft supply places is called
                                  aircraft spruce and specialties or something. Hughes' big plane was
                                  called the Spruce Goose, though it was in fact made of birch.

                                  But the best evidence is always in our own hands. We all just have
                                  to look at what we are getting localy and make up our own minds. I
                                  just finished making a Japanese bench using largely white pine. That
                                  wood was lovely. I went to one ultralite plane factory, and they
                                  were using pine for the wing spars. They had a little fixture that
                                  pressed a dimensioned sample of the material between a fixture, a
                                  bottle jack, and a bathroom scale. From this they graded the actual
                                  samples in hand, rather than depending on book learning such as I
                                  just referenced. David is doing the same thing by eye, and assuradly
                                  you rpobably could laminate up a spar out of the material you refered
                                  to.

                                  On his Trimarans, Piver used a system where he took two 2 2x6s and
                                  laminated them into a 4x6. He ripped diagonal scarphs every 4 feet
                                  in the 2x materials before gluing them up into 4x6, The result was a
                                  lot of diamond shaped pieces prior to assembly. This system worked
                                  well. I did a variation of it recently when building a small spar.
                                  I took a bunch of 2x6 material I had salvaged from a pallet, and
                                  ripped it into 2x2, leaving the cores/pith for the fire. Then I
                                  looked at each resulting piece, and everywhere there was a knot, I
                                  cut a scarph. Then I glued the whole mess back together. I paid no
                                  attention to regular spacing of the scarphs. The whole cutting and
                                  ripping exercise was done with a worm drive, and took about 30
                                  minutes. I planned the scarphs by hand, and reassembled them with
                                  glue, a staple at each feather, and clamps. I got a very high
                                  quality spar out of scrap. This is for Fat Eeek, which I didn't
                                  finish this year, not even having money for the paint. So next year
                                  will be the proof of it. This year I hope to build a 36' carbon
                                  fiber spar, freestanding, horses for courses...

                                  > You raise another issue. I once looked over a pallet of "spruce"
                                  > boards at my local lumberyard. They were about 1" thick and neither
                                  > planed or sanded. They were cheap, but seemed very rough, very
                                  weak,
                                  > and very limber. Questions: For what use were they intended? Would
                                  it
                                  > be possible for a boatbuilder with a planer to dress them and glue
                                  > them up into a small boat spar, e.g. the sprit or yard of a 10-15'
                                  > boat? Would it be a good idea, or is this just stuff to walk away
                                  > from?
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                • Harry James
                                  I hope you document and photo this project excessively. There is not much info out there on home built carbon spars. HJ This is for Fat Eeek, which I didn t
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 1, 2003
                                    I hope you document and photo this project excessively. There is not much
                                    info out there on home built carbon spars.

                                    HJ

                                    This is for Fat Eeek, which I didn't
                                    > finish this year, not even having money for the paint. So next year
                                    > will be the proof of it. This year I hope to build a 36' carbon
                                    > fiber spar, freestanding, horses for courses...
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • proaconstrictor <proaconstrictor@yahoo.c
                                    Maybe there will be more information out in the next few years. The key here is a combination of technique and materials. The designer has based the pole on
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 2, 2003
                                      Maybe there will be more information out in the next few years. The
                                      key here is a combination of technique and materials. The designer
                                      has based the pole on carbon yarn, mostly, and the result is that the
                                      fibers run about 7.50 a pound. At these prices, the materials will
                                      cost less that east coast sourced sitka, and be mayber half the
                                      diameter. There is a lot of potential for traditional rigs since
                                      those are amoung the ones that can take advantage a a fine light
                                      pole. Reason being, they are often stayless, demountable, and could
                                      benifit in light air from higher aspect ratios. Think of the Irens
                                      Roxana. I don't have the plans yet, and have no idea whether they
                                      will strike me as practical when I do, though I am told is is just
                                      basic stuff.


                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
                                      > I hope you document and photo this project excessively. There is
                                      not much
                                      > info out there on home built carbon spars.
                                      >
                                      > HJ
                                      >
                                      > This is for Fat Eeek, which I didn't
                                      > > finish this year, not even having money for the paint. So next
                                      year
                                      > > will be the proof of it. This year I hope to build a 36' carbon
                                      > > fiber spar, freestanding, horses for courses...
                                      > >
                                      > >
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