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micro navigator

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  • janandchuck
    is there a long micro version of the micro navigator plans if there is could i have price and e-mail address to buy on line. any information would be helpful
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 3 7:14 AM
      is there a long micro version of the micro navigator plans if there
      is could i have price and e-mail address to buy on line. any
      information would be helpful
      thank you chuck
    • brucehallman
      ... I have never heard that the Long Micro has a Navigator version. I think that stretching the cabin of Micro Navigator would be easy, but the big deal of
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 3 9:14 AM
        --- "janandchuck" <janandchuck@h...>
        > Is there a long micro version of the
        > micro navigator plans?

        I have never heard that
        the Long Micro has a Navigator
        version.

        I think that stretching the cabin
        of Micro Navigator would
        be easy, but the 'big deal' of
        Micro Navigator is the Chinese
        Gaff rig sail, which would be a
        bigger deal to 'stretch'.

        PB&F would probably be willing to
        quote a price [and probably not
        that expensive] to update the
        Long Micro with a Navigator version.

        The best way to ask them is to
        send them a fax, [no email]
        they are friendly and helpful.
      • Richard Spelling
        You could write Bolger. However, I predict he would ask you to start from first pricipals. If you are not specificaly looking for a long micro navigator, maybe
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 3 10:21 AM
          You could write Bolger. However, I predict he would ask you to start from
          first pricipals.

          If you are not specificaly looking for a long micro navigator, maybe you
          should tell us what you are wanting the boat for, and I'm sure someone on
          the list could recommend one for you.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "janandchuck" <janandchuck@...>
          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 9:14 AM
          Subject: [bolger] micro navigator


          | is there a long micro version of the micro navigator plans if there
          | is could i have price and e-mail address to buy on line. any
          | information would be helpful
          | thank you chuck
          |
          |
          |
          | Bolger rules!!!
          | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          | - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
          | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          | - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          |
          | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          |
          |
        • Nels
          ... Hi Bruce, What would be the problem with a Chinese Gaff sail rig on a Long Navigator?
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 3 11:21 AM
            --- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
            > --- "janandchuck" <janandchuck@h...>
            >> I think that stretching the cabin
            > of Micro Navigator would
            > be easy, but the 'big deal' of
            > Micro Navigator is the Chinese
            > Gaff rig sail, which would be a
            > bigger deal to 'stretch'.
            >
            Hi Bruce,
            What would be the problem with a Chinese
            Gaff sail rig on a Long Navigator?
          • dbaldnz
            Actually Bruce, there is Alert, the Manatee with a Bolger chinese gaff rig, which has sailed the oceans of the world. A Google search will locate her. DonB
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 3 11:32 AM
              Actually Bruce, there is Alert, the Manatee with a Bolger chinese
              gaff rig, which has sailed the oceans of the world. A Google search
              will locate her.
              DonB

              --- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
              > --- "janandchuck" <janandchuck@h...>
              > > Is there a long micro version of the
              > > micro navigator plans?
              >
              > I have never heard that
              > the Long Micro has a Navigator
              > version.
              >
              > I think that stretching the cabin
              > of Micro Navigator would
              > be easy, but the 'big deal' of
              > Micro Navigator is the Chinese
              > Gaff rig sail, which would be a
              > bigger deal to 'stretch'.
              >
              > PB&F would probably be willing to
              > quote a price [and probably not
              > that expensive] to update the
              > Long Micro with a Navigator version.
              >
              > The best way to ask them is to
              > send them a fax, [no email]
              > they are friendly and helpful.
            • pvanderwaart
              ... I think the thinking behind the comment is that although the Navigator cabin might be grafted to the Long Micro without much change, a Chinese Gaff rig
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 3 3:34 PM
                > What would be the problem with a Chinese
                > Gaff sail rig on a Long Navigator?

                I think the thinking behind the comment is that although the
                Navigator cabin might be grafted to the Long Micro without much
                change, a Chinese Gaff rig would require a careful redesign. Not that
                it couldn't be done, but that it hasn't been done.

                Peter
              • Bruce Hector
                Not exactly a Long Micro Navigator, although it may have inspired the Navigator, is a photo of a Glass House Long Micro that was advertised sale in MAIB a few
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 3 7:46 PM
                  Not exactly a Long Micro Navigator, although it may have inspired the
                  Navigator, is a photo of a Glass House Long Micro that was advertised
                  sale in MAIB a few years back. The pic is in Bolger2, the files
                  section, in the file "bolger Scans" that I added a while back.

                  As a full blown Long Micro version, tyhe Navigator would be an awsome
                  budget cruiser.

                  Bruce Hector, whose Micro "Riff-Raff" is under wraps at Rust Check as
                  we strive to keep up with the demands of the war on rust spraying
                  cars from pre-dawn to 9 pm. Hey, I even have Sunday off but I'm too
                  nackered to do anything but moan on the couch and watch the Comedy
                  Channel.
                • Richard Spelling
                  Naw, he should build the Chebacco Motor Cruiser, or the Light Cruiser, instead of one of those boxy looking things! (just kidding!) ... From: Bruce Hector
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 3 10:11 PM
                    Naw, he should build the Chebacco Motor Cruiser, or the Light Cruiser,
                    instead of one of those boxy looking things!
                    (just kidding!)


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@...>
                    To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 9:46 PM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: micro navigator


                    | Not exactly a Long Micro Navigator, although it may have inspired the
                    | Navigator, is a photo of a Glass House Long Micro that was advertised
                    | sale in MAIB a few years back. The pic is in Bolger2, the files
                    | section, in the file "bolger Scans" that I added a while back.
                    |
                    | As a full blown Long Micro version, tyhe Navigator would be an awsome
                    | budget cruiser.
                    |
                    | Bruce Hector, whose Micro "Riff-Raff" is under wraps at Rust Check as
                    | we strive to keep up with the demands of the war on rust spraying
                    | cars from pre-dawn to 9 pm. Hey, I even have Sunday off but I'm too
                    | nackered to do anything but moan on the couch and watch the Comedy
                    | Channel.
                    |
                    |
                    |
                    | Bolger rules!!!
                    | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    | - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                    | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                    01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    | - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    |
                    | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    |
                    |
                  • brucehallman
                    Peter says what I was thinking. IOW, the dynamics of the center of the force of the wind on the sails, against the lateral plane of the boat would be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 4 7:44 AM
                      Peter says what I was thinking. IOW,
                      the dynamics of the center of the force
                      of the wind on the sails, against the lateral
                      plane of the boat would be significantly
                      changed if you 'stretched' the Micro
                      Navigator sail plan. It could be done,
                      and PCB could do it easily.

                      If I were to try, the first attempt would
                      probably be a failure, and the second
                      attempt a success.

                      [Another reason to use poly-tarp sails.]


                      --- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                      > > What would be the problem with a Chinese
                      > > Gaff sail rig on a Long Navigator?
                      >
                      > I think the thinking behind the comment is that although the
                      > Navigator cabin might be grafted to the Long Micro without much
                      > change, a Chinese Gaff rig would require a careful redesign. Not
                      that
                      > it couldn't be done, but that it hasn't been done.
                      >
                      > Peter
                    • Peter Lenihan
                      Perhaps I ve lost my mind and I certainly do not wish to read more into Peter V. s comments then what Bruce has but,I seem to recall reading somewhere comments
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 4 8:35 AM
                        Perhaps I've lost my mind and I certainly do not wish to read more
                        into Peter V.'s comments then what Bruce has but,I seem to recall
                        reading somewhere comments from Bolger(?) that despite what looked
                        workable on paper for ALERT has in reality not dished up the
                        advantages once hoped for.To extract the maximum performance from
                        this rig,too many elements have to be virtually custom"tweeked" all
                        the way from the lower batten to the top AND front to back.Also,there
                        was some question/doubt as to the overall effeciancy of this "many
                        lines,many fittings" system.
                        By now,I would suppose that alot of the early bugs have been worked
                        out by the very capable owner of ALERT however I have yet to read any
                        final report on this from the designer.
                        It is a rig that is relatively expensive for all of its area and in
                        the smaller sizes,such as contemplated here,may not actually present
                        any real performance advantages over more conventional rigs available
                        for a boat of the LONG MICRO model.
                        As to the dynamics you speak of Bruce,I think if you can locate the
                        appropriate centers of resistance and effort,the game is half won and
                        the same rules apply.
                        Sincerely,
                        Peter Lenihan,enjoying some down time at work while pitching in his
                        02cents worth just for the fun of it while the snow continues to
                        fall.......





                        --- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
                        > Peter says what I was thinking. IOW,
                        > the dynamics of the center of the force
                        > of the wind on the sails, against the lateral
                        > plane of the boat would be significantly
                        > changed if you 'stretched' the Micro
                        > Navigator sail plan. It could be done,
                        > and PCB could do it easily.
                        >
                        > If I were to try, the first attempt would
                        > probably be a failure, and the second
                        > attempt a success.
                        >
                        > [Another reason to use poly-tarp sails.]
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                        > > > What would be the problem with a Chinese
                        > > > Gaff sail rig on a Long Navigator?
                        > >
                        > > I think the thinking behind the comment is that although the
                        > > Navigator cabin might be grafted to the Long Micro without much
                        > > change, a Chinese Gaff rig would require a careful redesign. Not
                        > that
                        > > it couldn't be done, but that it hasn't been done.
                        > >
                        > > Peter
                      • pvanderwaart
                        ... I flatly state that I don t know if PB&F would agree with the above, but it is clear that the thinking has progressed somewhat. The original Alert rig had,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 4 9:50 AM
                          > I seem to recall
                          > reading somewhere comments from Bolger(?) that despite what looked
                          > workable on paper for ALERT has in reality not dished up the
                          > advantages once hoped for.

                          I flatly state that I don't know if PB&F would agree with the above,
                          but it is clear that the thinking has progressed somewhat. The
                          original Alert rig had, as I remember, a full panoply of
                          interconneted Chinese sheetlets but the Fiji rig, just published has
                          a direct sheet to each batten. The number of battens may be reduced
                          as well. As I understand the writeups, the effect being aimed for was
                          the easy reefing of the Chinese rig with a Western sail shape.

                          Personally, as much as I admire the thinking, I would stay away from
                          this rig. Neat coils of line leap into knots at my approach, and I
                          don't see that multiplying the yards of line in and about the cockpit
                          would be a good thing for me. The jib-headed boom sprit rig with a
                          single, single-part sheet is the match for my temperment.

                          Peter
                        • brucehallman
                          ... An OCR scan of the Micro Navigator PB&F write up is pasted at the bottom of this message. ... For the Navigator at least (because overall project is
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 4 10:54 AM
                            --- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                            > As I understand the writeups,
                            > the effect being aimed for was
                            > the easy reefing of the Chinese
                            > rig with a Western sail shape.

                            An OCR scan of the Micro Navigator
                            PB&F 'write up' is pasted at the
                            bottom of this message.

                            > Personally, as much as I admire
                            > the thinking, I would stay away from
                            > this rig.

                            For the Navigator at least
                            (because overall project is small
                            enough) my attitude is
                            to try it and see!

                            ==== scan of PB&F 'write up' follows ====
                            The reason for this change is your safety at sea, combined with the
                            long-overdue need for more sail-area. MICRO, the NAVIGATOR, would
                            thus become a CHINESE GAFF CAT YAWL. With the best attributes of the
                            western gaff-rig and the eastern Junk rig combined, this geometry
                            controls each others' well-known vices, allows more sail-area (here
                            up to 203 ft2 total) which still can be reefed rapidly from within
                            the `house', while using existing structural geometric relationships
                            between masts-placement, rudder and keel. We've sailed the 525 ft2
                            prototype-rig this fall and so far so good in terms of utility,
                            safety, and convenience. And we've drawn the geometry for single
                            sails in sizes ranging from this proposal to about 1100 ft2. The
                            prototype proved that the geometry can be raised and lowered, reefed
                            and unfurled again while remaining `on course' using the sheets,
                            lazyjacks and the reeflines. On the MICRO NAVIGATOR all halyards,
                            sheets, ands reeflines would run from left and right of the mast up
                            aft under the housetop overhang for a reasonably dry entry via
                            fairleads into the house and to cleats/ clutches on the underside of
                            that top. Standing in the companionway or sitting inside, her light
                            sail and moving spars can be manipulated from amidships, without
                            shifting trim dramatically or opening her bow-hatch.

                            The new rig geometry would have main (4"dia) and mizzenmasts (3"dia),
                            that are unpainted stock industrial untapered aluminum pipe, as is
                            the boom (2 1/2"), while the purely arbitrarily bent gaff could
                            either be a bent tube (2 1/2") or a wood-lamination. There are no
                            lacings of sail-cloth to the mainmast or tracks. Rather, gaff-jaws
                            cut of of 1 1/2-2" plywood are connected to each other by bolts
                            through the sailcoth (!) and the battens/ boom/gaff, allowing the
                            cloth and battens to rotate freely around the mast controlled on the
                            mast by pands on each jaw and on the other end by spans between two
                            battens/spars linked to one sheet each.
                            We show three (short) sheets to control the twist - eliminating it -
                            of the mainsail along its trailing edge up, by sheeting only two
                            battens/spars per sheet; the stresses per sheet are thus marginal.
                            Thus you can produce a good shape without high-tension rigging and
                            fancy hardware - not that NAVIGATOR's size would eat up much of that
                            either. The boomvang shown has just the function to keep the boom
                            from rising under the pull of the lower span. Use plans and boat to
                            measure ropage through 180 deg arc!
                            Without the risk of the `death-roll' from twist-generated
                            oscillation of a gaffer down-wind, or the efficiency losses beating
                            and reaching from a sagging gaff, not to mention the `plate-shape'
                            losses of the Junk rig, MICRO NAVIGATOR could thus run with sail-
                            areas as desired on whatever course is geometrically possible,
                            without traditional gaff-hazards, and the bad aerodynamics of the
                            junk rig.
                            The issue remaining on each version of this geometry is the
                            relative stiffness of the battens along their length, as none can be
                            alike in stiffness and all have to work together to produce a
                            reasonable sail- shape - i.e. some draft forward and flatter near the
                            trailing edge. With NAVIGATOR's proposed 176ft2 main and shortish
                            smallish battens that task would not be overwhelming. Starting out
                            with too much stiffness, you'd observe the cloth's shape under
                            various conditions, to then unbolt and pull the battens, and taking
                            the planer/belt-sander to each batten in respective
                            locations `softening' it where it needs it; errors in removal could
                            be corrected by adding a layer of glasstape or put back strips of
                            veneer.
                            For `the long trip', we these attributes are most promising in
                            performance and safety - more sail area on demand, still a shorter
                            mast reefed in a blow, and none of that sprawling across her raised
                            deck...

                            =====
                          • Richard Spelling
                            http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/files/navigator1.pdf ... From: brucehallman To: Sent: Monday, November 04,
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 4 11:17 AM
                              http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/files/navigator1.pdf
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "brucehallman" <brucehallman@...>
                              To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 12:54 PM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: micro navigator


                              > --- "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                              > > As I understand the writeups,
                              > > the effect being aimed for was
                              > > the easy reefing of the Chinese
                              > > rig with a Western sail shape.
                              >
                              > An OCR scan of the Micro Navigator
                              > PB&F 'write up' is pasted at the
                              > bottom of this message.
                              >
                              > > Personally, as much as I admire
                              > > the thinking, I would stay away from
                              > > this rig.
                              >
                              > For the Navigator at least
                              > (because overall project is small
                              > enough) my attitude is
                              > to try it and see!
                              >
                              > ==== scan of PB&F 'write up' follows ====
                              > The reason for this change is your safety at sea, combined with the
                              > long-overdue need for more sail-area. MICRO, the NAVIGATOR, would
                              > thus become a CHINESE GAFF CAT YAWL. With the best attributes of the
                              > western gaff-rig and the eastern Junk rig combined, this geometry
                              > controls each others' well-known vices, allows more sail-area (here
                              > up to 203 ft2 total) which still can be reefed rapidly from within
                              > the `house', while using existing structural geometric relationships
                              > between masts-placement, rudder and keel. We've sailed the 525 ft2
                              > prototype-rig this fall and so far so good in terms of utility,
                              > safety, and convenience. And we've drawn the geometry for single
                              > sails in sizes ranging from this proposal to about 1100 ft2. The
                              > prototype proved that the geometry can be raised and lowered, reefed
                              > and unfurled again while remaining `on course' using the sheets,
                              > lazyjacks and the reeflines. On the MICRO NAVIGATOR all halyards,
                              > sheets, ands reeflines would run from left and right of the mast up
                              > aft under the housetop overhang for a reasonably dry entry via
                              > fairleads into the house and to cleats/ clutches on the underside of
                              > that top. Standing in the companionway or sitting inside, her light
                              > sail and moving spars can be manipulated from amidships, without
                              > shifting trim dramatically or opening her bow-hatch.
                              >
                              > The new rig geometry would have main (4"dia) and mizzenmasts (3"dia),
                              > that are unpainted stock industrial untapered aluminum pipe, as is
                              > the boom (2 1/2"), while the purely arbitrarily bent gaff could
                              > either be a bent tube (2 1/2") or a wood-lamination. There are no
                              > lacings of sail-cloth to the mainmast or tracks. Rather, gaff-jaws
                              > cut of of 1 1/2-2" plywood are connected to each other by bolts
                              > through the sailcoth (!) and the battens/ boom/gaff, allowing the
                              > cloth and battens to rotate freely around the mast controlled on the
                              > mast by pands on each jaw and on the other end by spans between two
                              > battens/spars linked to one sheet each.
                              > We show three (short) sheets to control the twist - eliminating it -
                              > of the mainsail along its trailing edge up, by sheeting only two
                              > battens/spars per sheet; the stresses per sheet are thus marginal.
                              > Thus you can produce a good shape without high-tension rigging and
                              > fancy hardware - not that NAVIGATOR's size would eat up much of that
                              > either. The boomvang shown has just the function to keep the boom
                              > from rising under the pull of the lower span. Use plans and boat to
                              > measure ropage through 180 deg arc!
                              > Without the risk of the `death-roll' from twist-generated
                              > oscillation of a gaffer down-wind, or the efficiency losses beating
                              > and reaching from a sagging gaff, not to mention the `plate-shape'
                              > losses of the Junk rig, MICRO NAVIGATOR could thus run with sail-
                              > areas as desired on whatever course is geometrically possible,
                              > without traditional gaff-hazards, and the bad aerodynamics of the
                              > junk rig.
                              > The issue remaining on each version of this geometry is the
                              > relative stiffness of the battens along their length, as none can be
                              > alike in stiffness and all have to work together to produce a
                              > reasonable sail- shape - i.e. some draft forward and flatter near the
                              > trailing edge. With NAVIGATOR's proposed 176ft2 main and shortish
                              > smallish battens that task would not be overwhelming. Starting out
                              > with too much stiffness, you'd observe the cloth's shape under
                              > various conditions, to then unbolt and pull the battens, and taking
                              > the planer/belt-sander to each batten in respective
                              > locations `softening' it where it needs it; errors in removal could
                              > be corrected by adding a layer of glasstape or put back strips of
                              > veneer.
                              > For `the long trip', we these attributes are most promising in
                              > performance and safety - more sail area on demand, still a shorter
                              > mast reefed in a blow, and none of that sprawling across her raised
                              > deck...
                              >
                              > =====
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                              > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • dbaldnz
                              Peter,the Navigator also has only 3 battens, each with a sheet as you describe. Alert now has a full chinese junk rig. The owner is quite elderly, and has
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 4 10:49 PM
                                Peter,the Navigator also has only 3 battens, each with a sheet as
                                you describe.
                                Alert now has a full chinese junk rig. The owner is quite elderly,
                                and has probably traded some efficiency for ultimate ease of sail
                                handling.
                                I will know early next year how true your comments about leaping
                                coils of lines are. My worst nightmare is being discovered in some
                                lonely bay, halfway up the rig, like a trussed dessicated starfish;
                                rather like the seagull I found in the netting over my tri a decade
                                ago.
                                DonB

                                --- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
                                > > I seem to recall
                                > > reading somewhere comments from Bolger(?) that despite what
                                looked
                                > > workable on paper for ALERT has in reality not dished up the
                                > > advantages once hoped for.
                                >
                                > I flatly state that I don't know if PB&F would agree with the
                                above,
                                > but it is clear that the thinking has progressed somewhat. The
                                > original Alert rig had, as I remember, a full panoply of
                                > interconneted Chinese sheetlets but the Fiji rig, just published
                                has
                                > a direct sheet to each batten. The number of battens may be
                                reduced
                                > as well. As I understand the writeups, the effect being aimed for
                                was
                                > the easy reefing of the Chinese rig with a Western sail shape.
                                >
                                > Personally, as much as I admire the thinking, I would stay away
                                from
                                > this rig. Neat coils of line leap into knots at my approach, and I
                                > don't see that multiplying the yards of line in and about the
                                cockpit
                                > would be a good thing for me. The jib-headed boom sprit rig with a
                                > single, single-part sheet is the match for my temperment.
                                >
                                > Peter
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