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Glassing for impact resistance/resistance is useless

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  • David Ryan
    FBBB -- As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres s simply no comparison between how long a
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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      FBBB --

      As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
      anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
      between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.

      However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact resistance"
      on my small boats.

      The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
      allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
      of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass delaminates,
      trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.

      Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
      pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
      either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
      enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a small,
      cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.

      YIBB,

      David
      --

      C.E.P.
      415 W.46th Street
      New York, New York 10036
      http://www.crumblingempire.com
      Mobile (646) 325-8325
      Office (212) 247-0296
    • brucehallman
      ... I have used, (but haven t tested) that Xynole fabric, which I recall is rated for much better impact resistance than fiberglass. I have some of that fabric
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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        --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
        > However, I've had no good experience
        > "glassing for impact resistance"
        > on my small boats.

        I have used, (but haven't tested)
        that Xynole fabric, which I
        recall is rated for much better
        impact resistance than fiberglass.

        I have some of that fabric in my
        hands right now, and it has an
        open weave, which reminds me
        of cheese cloth, but thicker.

        Here is a cut and paste of the
        www.raka.com blurb on the stuff:

        ====

        New Polyester Cloth

        (Xynole)

        This is a light weight open weave cloth made of polyester fibers. It
        is very easy to wet out and drapable. It has good elongation
        properties and good abrasion resistance. It does not itch like
        fiberglass. Makes a good hull covering material. Does not wet out
        clear.
      • Richard Spelling
        The interesting thing about glassing the hull for impact resistance is that we all put it on the wrong side! Durring a big impact the outside of the hull is
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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          The interesting thing about glassing the hull for "impact resistance" is
          that we all put it on the wrong side! Durring a big impact the outside of
          the hull is under compression, and the inside is under tension. If we put
          the glass on the inside, it would have a much better chance of preventing a
          stump from joining you in the boat.

          Glass on the outside is handy to keep big chunks of plywood from being
          ripped out by sharp rocks, though. Kevlar would be even better.

          Then again, on thin hulls, 5mm lauan comes to mind, I've come close to
          putting a knee through the bottom of the hull. Even a light glass layer on
          the bottom would help prevent that.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 6:00 AM
          Subject: [bolger] Glassing for impact resistance/resistance is useless


          | FBBB --
          |
          | As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
          | anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
          | between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
          |
          | However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact resistance"
          | on my small boats.
          |
          | The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
          | allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
          | of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass delaminates,
          | trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
          |
          | Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
          | pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
          | either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
          | enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a small,
          | cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
          |
          | YIBB,
          |
          | David
          | --
          |
          | C.E.P.
          | 415 W.46th Street
          | New York, New York 10036
          | http://www.crumblingempire.com
          | Mobile (646) 325-8325
          | Office (212) 247-0296
          |
          |
          | Bolger rules!!!
          | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          | - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
          | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          | - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          |
          | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          |
          |
        • Ned Asplundh
          Lookee here: http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm ...for one builder s take on the good, bad and ugly of differing reinforcement fabrics. ...
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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            Lookee here:

            http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm

            ...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
            reinforcement fabrics.

            --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
            > FBBB --
            >
            > As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
            > anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
            > between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
            >
            > However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
            resistance"
            > on my small boats.
            >
            > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
            > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
            > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
            delaminates,
            > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
            >
            > Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
            > pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
            > either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
            > enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
            small,
            > cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
            >
            > YIBB,
            >
            > David
            > --
            >
            > C.E.P.
            > 415 W.46th Street
            > New York, New York 10036
            > http://www.crumblingempire.com
            > Mobile (646) 325-8325
            > Office (212) 247-0296
          • Jeff Blunck
            I just visited this site and one of us is mistaken. I purchased Olefin from Defender and it looks and lays up exactly like the Dynel shown on this site. Also,
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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              I just visited this site and one of us is mistaken. I purchased Olefin from
              Defender and it looks and lays up exactly like the Dynel shown on this site.
              Also, the Defender catalog list this type of picture for Olefin.

              I went out in the garage and checked the box and packing on the 75 yard roll
              I have been using and it's marked Olefin.

              It's possible this site has the Dynel and Olefin mixed up.

              Interesting.

              Jeff


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ned Asplundh" <nasplundh@...>
              To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 6:09 PM
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Glassing for impact resistance/resistance is useless


              > Lookee here:
              >
              > http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
              >
              > ...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
              > reinforcement fabrics.
              >
              > --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
              > > FBBB --
              > >
              > > As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
              > > anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
              > > between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
              > >
              > > However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
              > resistance"
              > > on my small boats.
              > >
              > > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
              > > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
              > > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
              > delaminates,
              > > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
              > >
              > > Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
              > > pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact protection
              > > either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
              > > enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
              > small,
              > > cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
              > >
              > > YIBB,
              > >
              > > David
              > > --
              > >
              > > C.E.P.
              > > 415 W.46th Street
              > > New York, New York 10036
              > > http://www.crumblingempire.com
              > > Mobile (646) 325-8325
              > > Office (212) 247-0296
              >
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
              > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • Nels
              ... delaminates, ... I wonder David if the plywood is sucking out some of the resin from the glass as it cures? Do you precoat the plywood first with a
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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                --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                > FBBB --
                >
                > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
                > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the results
                > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
                delaminates,
                > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
                >
                >> C.E.P.
                > 415 W.46th Street
                > New York, New York 10036
                > http://www.crumblingempire.com
                > Mobile (646) 325-8325
                > Office (212) 247-0296

                I wonder David if the plywood is sucking out some of the resin from
                the glass as it cures? Do you precoat the plywood first with a
                penetrating resin to prevent this?

                System Three has a special resin for this purpose.There should
                therefor be a molecular bonding between that inner glass surface and
                the plywood cellular structure. This is one reason why epoxy is
                superior to polyester resin.

                Nels
              • John Cupp
                I continue to advocate UHMW for all the reasons sited in this thread. With UHMW your boat acts like it has a Teflon shell and will slid up and over submerged
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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                  I continue to advocate UHMW for all the reasons sited in this
                  thread. With UHMW your boat acts like it has a Teflon shell and will
                  slid up and over submerged obstacles like rocks and logs. I'm
                  positive if you follow a good building practice with normal bracing
                  and bulkheads then plate you boat with this incredible substance you
                  will have a three part protection system.

                  1. Plywood is stronger than most plain wood when comparing equal
                  thickness.

                  2. Fiberglass with epoxy provides another excellent layer that will
                  allow an impact to be spread over a larger area to absorb the impact
                  instead of a puncture.

                  3. Finally UHMW is and has been in use on wooden boats for years and
                  is becoming a favorite coating for craft exposed to white water or
                  rocky beaches where no other bottom protection works like UHMW.

                  I implore all boat builders to become acquainted with UHMW, it could
                  save your life or hours of cutting and scraping out wood rot. Maybe
                  you're afraid of the weight cost but I have used a .22 rifle(in a
                  safe area) and if you shoot at UHMW(3/8") directly on it will flatten
                  the bullet if the UHMW is backed by plywood. By itself it allows
                  penetration but no further travel. Not as effective as kevlar but
                  UHMW is supposed to provide a super slick surface that will provide
                  something that slides past and over rocks, eliminating punctures.

                  I have used UHMW on drift boats that survived my poor navigation
                  down some of the most treacherous white water the pacific northwest
                  has to offer. The outcome, Rivers 7 oars. Boats, well over 100
                  anadromous fish including steelhead, Salmon and Char. Some rapids
                  caused impacts that would have literally torn the bottom out of a
                  plain plywood with fiberglass covered bottom.

                  I cannot make anyone use UHMW but I will use it myself when I know
                  the safety of myself, family and other passengers depend on my good
                  judgment. UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats since
                  bronze screws. The views expressed here are mine alone and do not
                  represent Yahoo or others who post on this forum(LOL).

                  John





                  --- In bolger@y..., "Ned Asplundh" <nasplundh@y...> wrote:
                  > Lookee here:
                  >
                  > http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Abrasion.htm
                  >
                  > ...for one builder's take on the "good, bad and ugly" of differing
                  > reinforcement fabrics.
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                  > > FBBB --
                  > >
                  > > As you all know, I am a big advocate of glassing over plywood
                  > > anywhere the sun beat down on it. Theres's simply no comparison
                  > > between how long a prime&paint finish lasts vs. glass/epoxy/paint.
                  > >
                  > > However, I've had no good experience "glassing for impact
                  > resistance"
                  > > on my small boats.
                  > >
                  > > The inevitable result is the glass fails at the point of impact,
                  > > allowing water to creep under the glass job. Over time, the
                  results
                  > > of this are even worse than using no glass at all! Glass
                  > delaminates,
                  > > trapped water does nasty things to the wood, etc.
                  > >
                  > > Now that doesn't mean I don't double up around chines, and other
                  > > pointy parts of the boat. But I don't expect my "impact
                  protection
                  > > either." Perhaps on a larger craft you could build up the glass
                  > > enough to provide some meaningful protection, but I think on a
                  > small,
                  > > cheap boat it's both cost and weight prohibitive.
                  > >
                  > > YIBB,
                  > >
                  > > David
                  > > --
                  > >
                  > > C.E.P.
                  > > 415 W.46th Street
                  > > New York, New York 10036
                  > > http://www.crumblingempire.com
                  > > Mobile (646) 325-8325
                  > > Office (212) 247-0296
                • brucehallman
                  ... I am intrigued by the stuff. Has PCB expressed an opinion? Beyond the advantages that John mentions, I imagine that barnacles, etc. will not attach to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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                    --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
                    > I continue to advocate UHMW for all the reasons sited in this
                    > thread.

                    I am intrigued by the stuff. Has PCB
                    expressed an opinion? Beyond the
                    advantages that John mentions, I
                    imagine that barnacles, etc. will
                    not attach to it. Similar for
                    boring clams. Sort of the modern
                    answer to copper cladding.
                  • Sakari Aaltonen
                    ... But where du you buy it? What form does it come in? How much does it cost? Sakari Aaltonen
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 2, 2002
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                      > .......... UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats since
                      > bronze screws. The views expressed here are mine alone and do not
                      > represent Yahoo or others who post on this forum(LOL).
                      >
                      > John

                      But where du you buy it? What form does it come in? How much does it cost?


                      Sakari Aaltonen
                    • sals_dad
                      ... it cost? ... Try Crown Plastics: http://www.crownplastics.com/ 513-367-0238. For notes on a conversation I had with Pete there, see
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 4, 2002
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                        > > .......... UHMW is the greatest innovation for wooden boats since
                        > > bronze screws.
                        >
                        > But where du you buy it? What form does it come in? How much does
                        it cost?
                        >

                        Try Crown Plastics: http://www.crownplastics.com/ 513-367-0238. For
                        notes on a conversation I had with Pete there, see
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/23430 . There are lots
                        of other vendors (try a Google search) but Pete seemed knowledgeable.

                        He sent me a couple 10" square samples of adhesive-backed UHMW, but I
                        haven't yet had a boat upside down to apply it. Wonder how it
                        adheres in cold temps?

                        Sal's Dad
                        (still peeved 'cause the Diablo's new Yamaha wouldn't start this
                        weekend - it wasn't THAT cold, just a bit of ice in the bilge...)
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