Re: Common Sense Boats and reality
- I want to be clear that I did not say Mr. Payson did not have rights
to sell Bolger plans.
Here is a post about Bolger's rights made by PB&F, it is post 1250
and can be found in the links section of this site posted by the
honorable Bruce Hallman. It states facts, intents and reasons for the
deception by CSD(CSB)and other entities who sell Bolger designs with
their own modifications. The post can say this faster and more
eloquently than I possibly ever could.
From: "phil bolger" <pcb@s...>
Date: Sat Dec 18, 1999 3:56 am
Subject: [bolger] Rights and simplifying the world
Dept. Valiant Efforts:
Dear Pippo (since you asked), and all you folks who have taken it upon
themselves on the web to feed the 'Bolgeristi''s thirst for more
information, thanks for all that work. We hope you're having as much
fun as it looks. Good to see confirmed the spirit of voluntarism
helping out - at least until Bolger & F. get their own web-act
Dept. 20/20 vision on 'RIGHTS':
Statement of Facts:
- WE HOLD THE INTELLECTUAL RIGHTS TO EVERY DESIGN/SET OF PLANS OF (-)
WE'VE EVER CONCOCTED.
- The late Elrow LaRowe commissioned a few designs to which he would
have the right to sell copies, but no exclusive rights. Part of the
agreement was for him to build a prototype to each design. That
responsibility was only partially met. Royalty payments were straight
though, as far as we remember.
- CSD (CSB?!) are the de facto successors to LaRowe with the right on
very few designs to sell - NON-EXCLUSIVELY -, assuming the already
minimal royalty payments are met, which has NOT been the case for
- DUCKFLAT has in the past dealt with CSD in the fashion we've touched
on in earlier statements. We understand that they are selling
'versions' of our TENNESSEE and WYOMING designs. These versions are
NOT FROM US. They are NOT AUTHORIZED in any way. We draw no royalty
from them. And the name and creativity of Bolger are being 'taken for
a ride'- again. Since we will not pay for OUR plans, modified by
others, we'll likely never see how far they've gone to adulterate the
underlying concept of the two types. Is it ok. to do this? We don't
think we've never been asked!
Why are these people behaving this way? Your guess is as good as ours.
Phil has always been very generous and relaxed about making a hard
buck - look at the general design emphasis on
Writing for SMALL BOAT JOURNAL and now MESSING ABOUT speaks volumes.
Unfortunately, instead of enjoying this friendly approach to business
and respecting it for the sake of peaceful creativity - here and in
your shop -, above mentioned parties seem to have felt the urge to
'expand the envelope' even further, hoping, with some success, that at
least for a while we won't see the whole picture - nor the public for
that matter! The approach is short-sighted, has in its various
iterations deeply violated Phil's sensibilities, has cost serious
income, and has cost legal fees.
We trust that 'world-wide' transparency will reduce the likelihood of
this continuing to any serious degree.
Are respective parties unhappy about this transparency? Certainly.
Some of the responses have been quite memorable - to put a good spin
it... With few exceptions they have ranged from cheeky to absurd.
Some day we might share some 'golden chestnuts'!
We'd rather, there were no 'ugly under-belly' of respective
We all make mistakes, occasional errors in judgement. Fine. But if
their view of reality consistently clashes with facts and
responsibilities, it is worthy of note. If damaging behavior is done
with an air of apparent ease and self-styled matter of course, it gets
a bit much.
Nobody gets rich in this business - at least not yet... But if certain
broker's scheme is to make more from our labor than we'll ever do,
things get questionable.
We have spent endless time dealing with inquiries on plans of ours
bought elsewhere. We continue to have our name associated with
fourth-rate copies with our name on it. And,perhaps worst, is bad
counsel given to unsuspecting builders in respect to modification,
small to disastrous, causing ripples back to Gloucester - at least in
terms of yet another dumb bad boat out there, having often cost more
effort if not money than the good one... Having a Bolger boats on the
water that does not work well anymore is good for nobody. If we screw
up, we'll be quite upfront about it, as shown in print in the past.
But being associated with White Elephants is quite painful.
These brokers style of self-promotion using the name and work of
should not be misunderstood by anyone out there as good for us at PB&F
or as being muc good to any boat builder. The less such distractions
have, the better for creativity and fun and games.
- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY QUESTION ABOUT Dynamite Payson's
- THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANY QUESTION ABOUT WOODENBOAT's INTEGRITY.
We hold the intellectual right to every design we've ever concocted.
And nobody speaks for us. Nobody is authorized to speak for us.
Are we done with this subject of fundamentals ?! Is this a clean
- If you have problems with non-delivery of a product, consider
contacting the better business bureau. If each of you who has had a
problem does this, then maybe something will be done.
My two cents....
- And your credit card company.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mikestockstill" <mkstocks@...>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Common Sense Boats
> If you have problems with non-delivery of a product, consider
> contacting the better business bureau. If each of you who has had a
> problem does this, then maybe something will be done.
> My two cents....
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: email@example.com
> - Open discussion: firstname.lastname@example.org
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- I made a
> mistake by buying Bolger plans from CSB but I will never make thatI made that mistake too. He double billed me for the set of plans and
> mistake again. >
has ignored my calls and emails to straighten it out. I did get a
call through one time and got a story from the woman that answered -
"they couldn't send a refund at that time because they had a
computer virus". I guess I'm slow, but by the time I figured out I
was dealing with a dishonest person it was too late to refuse payment
through the credit card company.
- On September 20th, I posted the problems I was having with this
company (no response to my questions about the status of my order).
I quickly learned that I was not the only one who was having
Over a month has passed, and still no response. I left messages by
telephone and e-mail. I tried fax, but the number seems not to be
connected to a fax machine. So, Tuesday I mailed a letter to the
Oregon Attorney General. If anyone would like to do the same, the
Oregon Department of Justice
1162 Court Street Northeast
Salem, Oregon 97301-4096
- Thanks for the info.
I ordered Brick plans in July. Emails got no response
except once I was told they would be mailed the next
day. That was about 2 months ago.
The charge went through on my credit card but no plans
came. Phone calls were never answered.
I will notify the Oregon Attorney General.
--- james_stytle <jstytle@...> wrote:
> On September 20th, I posted the problems I was__________________________________________________
> having with this
> company (no response to my questions about the
> status of my order).
> I quickly learned that I was not the only one who
> was having
> Over a month has passed, and still no response. I
> left messages by
> telephone and e-mail. I tried fax, but the number
> seems not to be
> connected to a fax machine. So, Tuesday I mailed a
> letter to the
> Oregon Attorney General. If anyone would like to do
> the same, the
> address is:
> Oregon Department of Justice
> 1162 Court Street Northeast
> Salem, Oregon 97301-4096
> James Stytle
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
- Wow, my Big Dory plans finally arrived yesterday from Common Sense
Designs. I ordered in June, they cashed the cheque in July and made
excuses til now. Nice dory, I think I cobble one together with my
particular work boat finish. Gerry Estes has seen fit to put a
big "copywright to CSB" stamp on the rather poor photo copies, while
leaving PB&F's designer info on the lower right corner of each sheet.
Still, she looks like she'll be a fine littlew, er...big, row boat.
At 20' she's too big to car top, but it'll look awful cool rowing
around the harbour.
- --- In email@example.com, "Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@h...>"
> Wow, my Big Dory plans finally arrived yesterday from Common Sensemade
> Designs. I ordered in June, they cashed the cheque in July and
> excuses til now. Nice dory, I think I cobble one together with mywhile
> particular work boat finish. Gerry Estes has seen fit to put a
> big "copywright to CSB" stamp on the rather poor photo copies,
> leaving PB&F's designer info on the lower right corner of eachsheet.
> Still, she looks like she'll be a fine littlew, er...big, row
> At 20' she's too big to car top, but it'll look awful cool rowingI got my plans in a very few days (europe) from CSD.
> around the harbour.
> Bruce Hector
- I noticed that you can also buy those plans from Payson.He gets 35.00
for the set.I get my plans pretty fast from Payson.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@h...>"
> Wow, my Big Dory plans finally arrived yesterday from Common Sense
> Designs. I ordered in June, they cashed the cheque in July and made
> excuses til now. Nice dory, I think I cobble one together with my
> particular work boat finish. Gerry Estes has seen fit to put a
> big "copywright to CSB" stamp on the rather poor photo copies, while
> leaving PB&F's designer info on the lower right corner of each sheet.
> Still, she looks like she'll be a fine littlew, er...big, row boat.
> At 20' she's too big to car top, but it'll look awful cool rowing
> around the harbour.
> Bruce Hector
>I noticed that you can also buy those plans from Payson.He gets 35.00Plus everything I've ordered from Payson has come with a little
>for the set.I get my plans pretty fast from Payson.
inscription or note. Nice touch.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office (212) 247-0296
- If you buy them from Bolger they cost 65.00,Are they not the same
plans that Payson sells?
--- In email@example.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> >I noticed that you can also buy those plans from Payson.He gets 35.00
> >for the set.I get my plans pretty fast from Payson.
> Plus everything I've ordered from Payson has come with a little
> inscription or note. Nice touch.
> 415 W.46th Street
> New York, New York 10036
> Mobile (646) 325-8325
> Office (212) 247-0296