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[bolger] Martha Jane heavy mast

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  • ed haile
    Attention Martha Jane fleet! I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy. I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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      Attention Martha Jane fleet!

      I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy.
      I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole boat. The
      solid fir mainmast, built up in three 2x planks, not of very
      close-grained material, weighs 100.5 lbs, including pivot plates and
      halyard block, and that it seems is just too much upstairs for the boat
      to recover from a knockdown. In fact, at that weight aloft she will not
      recover careened under bare poles (the yard, boom, and sail add another
      40 lbs).

      I have the plans and I do not see that the builder deviated in any
      significant way from them, either in scantlings or leeboard weights or
      water tanks. In fact, the mast measures a tad under plan tapers. No, it
      seems he just picked out a very heavy piece of fir to make that
      mainmast. The mizzen and boomkin look to be cut from the same young,
      rapid-growth tree and are also heavy.

      PB&F advise my problem is unique among Martha Janes. All the rest are
      reported to be self-righting, even though "the margin is small."
      Nonetheless, since the imbalance is an advantage in all boats, I
      thought I would share some solutions and figures. I have only just
      joined the group.

      PB&F suggest 1) adding a 2" by 2' shoe on the bottom 2) gluing perhaps
      300-400 lbs of sheet lead in the aisle, with the caution of furnishing
      a commensurate amount of positive foam flotation 3) lighter mast
      material.

      PCB expressed the opinion that the mast was so short that the weight
      savings of building a hollow wooden mast would be of too small
      significance. He did however recommend aluminum or carbon fiber. A 20'
      length of schedule 40 4-inch aluminum pipe (4-1/2 od) would be
      sufficient, weighing about 71 lbs, or 3-inch same, weighing around 5l
      lbs "if you don't have too many people on the gunwale."
      I believe 4" pipe is well under $300.

      I have a quote on a carbon fiber tube from Ted Van Dusen at Composite
      Marine. A bare, open, unfinished tube with a constant taper from 5"
      down to 2-3/8" over 19 feet is $1120. The wall is 5/32" and the bare
      weight is 21 lbs. Why a foot short? Ted decided the 4-1/2ft tail was no
      longer necessary. A through-tube for the pivot pin would cost another
      $100. By the way, shipping is very low since rates are based on weight.

      Which way am I going? A friend came forward and offered to build me a
      hollow fir spar of "aircraft grade" that we calculate will come in
      around 50 lbs on plan tapers. It is very clear and very old, counting
      20-35 rings per inch. I am trading him an 18ft trimaran he wants very
      badly.

      Ed Haile

      www.edwardwrighthaile.com
    • GHC
      Ed, Have a look at my tapered aluminum flagpoles at www.carlsondesign.com, the light scooner. Mine are 16 , $200, about 3 by ~1/8 wall near the base. I
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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        Ed,

        Have a look at my tapered aluminum flagpoles at www.carlsondesign.com, the
        light scooner.

        Mine are 16', $200, about 3" by ~1/8" wall near the base. I don't recall
        the weight, but they couldn't be more than 30 or 40#. I recall they also
        offer 20' also; lots of them priced on the internet.

        Gregg Carlson


        At 06:50 AM 2/3/2000 -0800, you wrote:
        >Attention Martha Jane fleet!
        >
        >I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy.
        >I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole boat. The
        >solid fir mainmast, built up in three 2x planks, not of very
        >close-grained material, weighs 100.5 lbs, including pivot plates and
        >halyard block, and that it seems is just too much upstairs for the boat
        >to recover from a knockdown. In fact, at that weight aloft she will not
        >recover careened under bare poles (the yard, boom, and sail add another
        >40 lbs).
        >
        >I have the plans and I do not see that the builder deviated in any
        >significant way from them, either in scantlings or leeboard weights or
        >water tanks. In fact, the mast measures a tad under plan tapers. No, it
        >seems he just picked out a very heavy piece of fir to make that
        >mainmast. The mizzen and boomkin look to be cut from the same young,
        >rapid-growth tree and are also heavy.
        >
        >PB&F advise my problem is unique among Martha Janes. All the rest are
        >reported to be self-righting, even though "the margin is small."
        >Nonetheless, since the imbalance is an advantage in all boats, I
        >thought I would share some solutions and figures. I have only just
        >joined the group.
        >
        >PB&F suggest 1) adding a 2" by 2' shoe on the bottom 2) gluing perhaps
        >300-400 lbs of sheet lead in the aisle, with the caution of furnishing
        >a commensurate amount of positive foam flotation 3) lighter mast
        >material.
        >
        >PCB expressed the opinion that the mast was so short that the weight
        >savings of building a hollow wooden mast would be of too small
        >significance. He did however recommend aluminum or carbon fiber. A 20'
        >length of schedule 40 4-inch aluminum pipe (4-1/2 od) would be
        >sufficient, weighing about 71 lbs, or 3-inch same, weighing around 5l
        >lbs "if you don't have too many people on the gunwale."
        >I believe 4" pipe is well under $300.
        >
        >I have a quote on a carbon fiber tube from Ted Van Dusen at Composite
        >Marine. A bare, open, unfinished tube with a constant taper from 5"
        >down to 2-3/8" over 19 feet is $1120. The wall is 5/32" and the bare
        >weight is 21 lbs. Why a foot short? Ted decided the 4-1/2ft tail was no
        >longer necessary. A through-tube for the pivot pin would cost another
        >$100. By the way, shipping is very low since rates are based on weight.
        >
        >Which way am I going? A friend came forward and offered to build me a
        >hollow fir spar of "aircraft grade" that we calculate will come in
        >around 50 lbs on plan tapers. It is very clear and very old, counting
        >20-35 rings per inch. I am trading him an 18ft trimaran he wants very
        >badly.
        >
        >Ed Haile
        >
        >www.edwardwrighthaile.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Lincoln Ross
        What about Fiberspar? I would think they were more into masts than van Dusen, or has van Dusen changed their focus? Or is Fiberspar just for boardsailing? I m
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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          What about Fiberspar? I would think they were more into masts than van
          Dusen, or has van Dusen changed their focus? Or is Fiberspar just for
          boardsailing? I'm not knocking van Dusen. I've seen some of the work
          that came from his outfit and it was very nice. Keep in mind that I
          haven't dealt with either outfit myself.
          "ed haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2239
          snip
          > I have a quote on a carbon fiber tube from Ted Van Dusen at Composite
          > Marine. A bare, open, unfinished tube with a constant taper from 5"
          > down to 2-3/8" over 19 feet is $1120. The wall is 5/32" and the bare
          > weight is 21 lbs. Why a foot short? Ted decided the 4-1/2ft tail was
          no
          > longer necessary. A through-tube for the pivot pin would cost another
          > $100. By the way, shipping is very low since rates are based on
          weight.
          > snip
          >
          > www.edwardwrighthaile.com
          >
          >
          >
        • ed haile
          I don t think so, but my tank arrangement is a bit novel. Instead of a thru-hull plug, I have a hose from the cockpit. My 4 screwports in the tanks leeked at
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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            I don't think so, but my tank arrangement is a bit novel. Instead of a
            thru-hull plug, I have a hose from the cockpit. My 4" screwports in the
            tanks leeked at first, but I got new gaskets and gave em an extra turn.
            When I careened, I wondered if the hose would dribble into the cockpit,
            but it did not and I did not notice a decreasing waterlevel in the
            upward tank after a day or two over on her side.

            On the other hand, since I am filling the tank from the top, I wonder
            if there isn't a little bit of air always in the tank. But hardly more
            than a half gallon's volume in each. I'm stumped.

            > Ed, are you quite, quite sure that your ballast tanks are not
            partially
            > emptying themselves unbeknownst?? I ask because Graham Cheers also had
            > problems as you described, and eventually found that the ballast tank,
            > windward side, would very slowly empty while heeling, eventually
            making
            > the boat susceptible to capsize and, yes, one total swamp. it took a
            > long time to notice because, once tyhe boat was back upright, the tank
            > surreptitiously refilled...
            >
            > His solution was to ensure that tanks had positive, airtight, locking
            > closures on intakes and vents. As far as I know, there's been no
            > repeats over the last year.
            >
            > Tim & FT2
            >
            >
          • Orr, Jamie
            Ed Sorry, I can t offer any suggestions for your problem, but I m curious how you dealt with the capsizes and swamping. It sounds like you recovered from the
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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              Ed

              Sorry, I can't offer any suggestions for your problem, but I'm curious how
              you dealt with the capsizes and swamping. It sounds like you recovered from
              the capsizes okay -- how did you get back up? And once swamped, could you
              get upright and bail/pump out or did you have to have outside help?

              Jamie Orr

              -----Original Message-----
              From: ed haile [mailto:ewhaile@...]
              Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:51 AM
              To: bolger@...
              Subject: [bolger] Martha Jane heavy mast


              Attention Martha Jane fleet!

              I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy.
              I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole boat. The
              solid fir mainmast, built up in three 2x planks, not of very
              close-grained material, weighs 100.5 lbs, including pivot plates and
              halyard block, and that it seems is just too much upstairs for the boat
              to recover from a knockdown. In fact, at that weight aloft she will not
              recover careened under bare poles (the yard, boom, and sail add another
              40 lbs).
            • ed haile
              In all cases, including the swamp, I uncleated the up board, shoved it out (down) and stood on it like a dinghy s centerboard. She popped up right away. I
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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                In all cases, including the swamp, I uncleated the up board, shoved it
                out (down) and stood on it like a dinghy's centerboard. She popped up
                right away. I don't believe I bothered to release the mizzen. I was off
                and away certainly inside of two minutes. I did not have to get in the
                water.

                The boat swamped because I had an unsecured offcenter hatch. But the
                hatch then floated away. Otherwise, properly equipped, I believe I
                could have replaced it and with a removable screwport in the side of
                the cabin, I could have pumped her dry floating on her side with
                campanionway hatch and dropboards in place. That is, I could have
                completely recovered the boat unassisted. A helluva thing to think
                about in regard to a ballasted cruiser. But then that's why I think
                water ballast is the greatest invention since water.

                However, as it was on this particular pretty day, I was helpless. I
                found I (and a friend, and my lab) could roll her but could not hold
                her upright at all. Once up she simply capsized the other way. Phil's
                expressed fear that these WB types are prone to turn turtle did
                threaten because A) the water was only 7 or 8 ft deep B) the mast
                floats anyway C) my/our weight was enough on the extended leeboards to
                control her. I got the mainsail down and I suppose I could have folded
                the main mast down too, etc. but that darn hatch was gone, so...

                So, I saw twenty-five horses galloping down the river to the strains of
                Rossini's overture and got em to tow us ashore a half mile away. I then
                righted her when it was shallow enough for the bottom to hold her up,
                and bailed and bailed and bailed. With nice big five gallon buckets.
                Three of us nonstop. No harm done, we sailed home nicely.

                The only thing I could add was that in all cases she went over on the
                side the rig is on, namely, to starboard on a port tack. Once she went
                over when the boat turned sharply four points broad reaching. Twice she
                capsized when double reefed with full mizzen. The boomkin and mizzen
                floated out of their steps but the danger was caught in time.

                > Ed
                >
                > Sorry, I can't offer any suggestions for your problem, but I'm
                curious how
                > you dealt with the capsizes and swamping. It sounds like you
                recovered from
                > the capsizes okay -- how did you get back up? And once swamped,
                could you
                > get upright and bail/pump out or did you have to have outside help?
                >
                > Jamie Orr
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: ed haile [mailto:ewhaile@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 6:51 AM
                > To: bolger@...
                > Subject: [bolger] Martha Jane heavy mast
                >
                >
                > Attention Martha Jane fleet!
                >
                > I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be
                top-heavy.
                > I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole boat. The
                > solid fir mainmast, built up in three 2x planks, not of very
                > close-grained material, weighs 100.5 lbs, including pivot plates and
                > halyard block, and that it seems is just too much upstairs for the
                boat
                > to recover from a knockdown. In fact, at that weight aloft she will
                not
                > recover careened under bare poles (the yard, boom, and sail add
                another
                > 40 lbs).
                >
              • ed haile
                lincoln ross ... Can t say. Is that a company or a product? I checked with several mfgrs, none expressed much interest, more than one referred me to
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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                  "lincoln ross"
                  > What about Fiberspar? I would think they were more into masts than van
                  > Dusen, or has van Dusen changed their focus?

                  Can't say. Is that a company or a product? I checked with several
                  mfgrs, none expressed much interest, more than one referred me to
                  Composite Marine both for price and quality. PCB says we do not yet
                  know the long term and a couple of these "cantilevers" have failed
                  dramatically, though he allows more than likely ones not built to Van
                  Dusen's standards. One flag pole man said he would not use a flag pole
                  for an unstayed boat mast at all. I believe schedule 40 is a 1/4" wall.

                  Ed Haile

                  www.edwardwrighthaile.com
                • Hwal@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/3/2000 6:16:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, ewhaile@hotmail.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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                    In a message dated 2/3/2000 6:16:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                    ewhaile@... writes:

                    << I don't think so, but my tank arrangement is a bit novel. Instead of a
                    thru-hull plug, I have a hose from the cockpit. My 4" screwports in the
                    tanks leeked at first, but I got new gaskets and gave em an extra turn.
                    When I careened, I wondered if the hose would dribble into the cockpit,
                    but it did not and I did not notice a decreasing waterlevel in the
                    upward tank after a day or two over on her side.

                    On the other hand, since I am filling the tank from the top, I wonder
                    if there isn't a little bit of air always in the tank. But hardly more
                    than a half gallon's volume in each. I'm stumped.
                    >>
                    Jumping in here - perhaps the ballast tanks are too small?? It sure sounds
                    like a ballast problem to me too -

                    our mj launchs this saturday btw - not that you have increased my angst a bit
                    ..... :-)
                    steve anderson
                  • Lincoln Ross
                    ed haile wrote: snip ... They are a company that makes windsurfer masts. Look at: www.fiberspar.com ... They ve been using composites
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 3, 2000
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                      "ed haile" <ewhail-@...> wrote:
                      snip
                      > > What about Fiberspar? snip
                      > Can't say. Is that a company or a product?
                      They are a company that makes windsurfer masts. Look at:
                      www.fiberspar.com
                      > PCB says we do not yet
                      > know the long term and a couple of these "cantilevers" have failed
                      > dramatically, though he allows more than likely ones not built to Van
                      > Dusen's standards.
                      They've been using composites in aircraft for quite a while now.
                      Fatigue life seems to be good. A couple of drawbacks:
                      -failure is sudden, not gradual
                      -inspection procedures are not as well worked out as for metal
                      -you have to be more careful about local loading. If you have something
                      sharp pushing on a composite structure, it's more vulnerable. It's only
                      strong in the direction of the fibers. You probably want to be careful
                      about mast partners, fittings, and such

                      I think you have to find someone (not me) who really understands how to
                      lay this stuff up properly.

                      One flag pole man said he would not use a flag pole
                      > for an unstayed boat mast at all. I believe schedule 40 is a 1/4"
                      wall.
                      Red Zinger, a Bolger design, has been using an aluminum lamp pole, I
                      believe, for some time with good success. I think it's (the hull) about
                      a 27 footer, neither especially fat or especially skinny. Appears in
                      Boats with an Open Mind. Original wood mast was stiffened with carbon
                      later. I seem to recall hearing that the carbon failed at the partners.
                      >
                      > Ed Haile
                      >
                      > www.edwardwrighthaile.com
                      >
                    • G Carlson
                      The pair on my light schooner have held up in some heavy breezes with lots of ballast. There are a couple of mast programs on carlsondesign.com if anyone is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 7, 2000
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                        The pair on my light schooner have held up in some heavy breezes with lots
                        of ballast. There are a couple of mast programs on carlsondesign.com if
                        anyone is interested to simulate different materials.

                        Gregg Carlson



                        >One flag pole man said he would not use a flag pole
                        >> for an unstayed boat mast at all. I believe schedule 40 is a 1/4"
                        >wall.
                        >Red Zinger, a Bolger design, has been using an aluminum lamp pole, I
                        >believe, for some time with good success. I think it's (the hull) about
                        >a 27 footer, neither especially fat or especially skinny. Appears in
                        >Boats with an Open Mind. Original wood mast was stiffened with carbon
                        >later. I seem to recall hearing that the carbon failed at the partners.
                        >>
                        >> Ed Haile
                        >>
                        >> www.edwardwrighthaile.com
                        >>
                        >
                        >
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                      • tjfatchen@ace.net.au
                        BO Attention Martha Jane fleet! BO I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy. BO I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 13 6:47 PM
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                          BO>Attention Martha Jane fleet!

                          BO>I bought a Martha Jane last April 99, which has proved to be top-heavy.
                          BO>I capsized 3 or 4 times, once actually swamping the whole boat. The
                          BO>solid fir mainmast, built up in three 2x planks, not of very
                          BO>close-grained material, weighs 100.5 lbs, including pivot plates and
                          BO>halyard block, and that it seems is just too much upstairs for the boat
                          BO>to recover from a knockdown. In fact, at that weight aloft she will not
                          BO>recover careened under bare poles (the yard, boom, and sail add another
                          BO>40 lbs).
                          <snip>

                          Ed, are you quite, quite sure that your ballast tanks are not partially
                          emptying themselves unbeknownst?? I ask because Graham Cheers also had
                          problems as you described, and eventually found that the ballast tank,
                          windward side, would very slowly empty while heeling, eventually making
                          the boat susceptible to capsize and, yes, one total swamp. it took a
                          long time to notice because, once tyhe boat was back upright, the tank
                          surreptitiously refilled...

                          His solution was to ensure that tanks had positive, airtight, locking
                          closures on intakes and vents. As far as I know, there's been no
                          repeats over the last year.

                          Tim & FT2
                        • c.ruzer
                          ...I can feel the surge and the power and the parting of the sea on that beautiful (bolger) chine... http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/zz-152-my-yawl-boat/
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 29, 2013
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                             "...I can feel the surge and the power
                             and the parting of the sea on that beautiful (bolger) chine...


                            http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/zz-152-my-yawl-boat/


                            zz 152 My yawl boat


                            Sometimes she throws a cold sea in my face,
                            and heels until green water scrubs my sails
                            in storms so tall the heart within me fails,
                            but how my yawl boat loves to seethe and race.


                            and doesn’t care about my misery.
                            In fact, how could she, busy having fun?
                            She leaps and lies and knows just how to run
                            from breaking tops and let them go alee.

                            She loves me, and she knows I love her too;
                            and knows my love forgives her and outlives
                            the maddest gale, the blackest morning if
                            she’ll lift her bow and holds her bearing true.

                            But how she makes the wind-resentful sea
                            part for her frolicking unsparingly.

                             
                            Edward Wright Haile


                            > > >


                            ([bolger] Re: Martha Jane heavy mast (2274), ed haile, Feb 4, 2000)


                            "...Downwind, no problem. Sail her flat. Upwind, this boat wants to lie right on
                             15%, max 30%. Beyond that she softens and is no good. Might capsize even.
                             She talks to me and she has told me this. I can feel the surge and the power
                             and the parting of the sea on that beautiful chine. I am taking some small
                             steps to stiffen my Martha a little, but she is built regulation Bolger."


                          • c.ruzer
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/topics/2239 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/topics/2239
                            Message 13 of 22 , Dec 29, 2013
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                            • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                              ... What do you think? Is the % sign above meant to indicate degrees? I trust this fellow s sense of what the boat is telling him. What about some flotation
                              Message 14 of 22 , Dec 30, 2013
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > "...Downwind, no problem. Sail her flat. Upwind, this boat wants to lie right on
                                > 15%, max 30%. Beyond that she softens and is no good. Might capsize even.
                                > She talks to me and she has told me this. I can feel the surge and the power
                                > and the parting of the sea on that beautiful chine. I am taking some small
                                > steps to stiffen my Martha a little, but she is built regulation Bolger."
                                >


                                What do you think? Is the % sign above meant to indicate degrees? I trust this fellow's sense of what the boat is telling him. What about some flotation attached to the top of the mast with a ripcord to trigger inflation?

                                I think the Navigator cabin and sponsons PCB added to MJ speak of concern about capsize in this design. I find the cabin handsome and useful, the sponsons visually unpleasing, but very likely necessary. If I owned an original MJ, I would use some large PVC pipe to quickly add the sponsons of the new version. I'd build up the cabin also.

                                If I were to build an MJ new, I would be tempted to forego the water ballast tanks, and instead get a tank building company to bend up a steel shoe of sufficent thickness to replace the water, plus the additional ballast Bolger added when adding the cabin/sponsons. The ballast tanks then become internal storage, and she becomes a better cruiser, though a worse trailer boat.
                              • c.ruzer
                                Yes, I believe that % sign stands for degrees. The associated discussions circle around 15, 30, 40, 50 and a later calculated 60 degrees of no return if
                                Message 15 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
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                                  Yes, I believe that "%" sign stands for degrees. The associated discussions circle around 15, 30, 40, 50 and a later calculated 60 degrees of no return if built as designed.... lots of angles.


                                  This fellow, Ed, an experienced sailor, was not too worried about capsizing. His was the first to be reported, he dealt with it. He says he undertook "studies" or "investigations" which I believe consisted largely of sailing the hell out of the boat, and maybe a bit of rolling/tipping via lots of live ballast or careening via a line to the masthead. He early on concluded that reducing the mast weight would be sufficient for him, he was not going to sea, and could cope with a wind knockdown easily if he had his (off centre) hatches closed. He seems to have loved the boat and seems to have kept her for some time. Perhaps he has his MJ still, although pics of him turn up sailing a ply catamaran on those waters. His poem speaks of his positive feelings toward the boat, and pleasure, and I believe dates from some fair while down the track after his capsize experience. He went with a hollow mast to lower the cog - enough for him he said. Without reading back through those threads again just now, my recollection is that he saved about 50lbs of weight aloft by swapping to an hollow aircraft grade fir mast from his rather heavy solid fir mast...
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/2239
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/2274
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/6159
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/3575
                                  searched the archive by "Martha Jane capsise" (51 results), and "Martha Jane capsize" (5 results)...


                                  Others at the time also suggested or thought about adding mast top floats... The sponsons would help prevent turtling, for sure. Light weight for trailering is a big ask to give up... It all depends on the intended use and on the intended waters, I think. Personally, I'd be for raising the decks aft. Low decks, mainly those aft, is what the PB&F analysis found to be the problem with the righting curve... The Rozinante type deep secure cockpit feeling would be lost somewhat, but after all it is only an illusory feeling if it doesn't stand up when tested even if the thought is nice and desirable. I'd accept the increased dry stowage/bouyancy space below as a trade off, and that might be more useful if intending longer cruises. Life jackets, harnesses, etc,  and a boat that pops back up would give a secure enough feeling in the deep stuff... see the PB&F MJ revised MAIB article text here:

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bolger/conversations/messages/34259

                                  ==cut and paste of text from MAIB below===

                                   PHIL BOLGER & FRIENDS, INC.
                                   BOAT DESIGNERS, P0 BOX 1209 FAX 978-282-1349
                                   GLOUCESTER, MA 01930, USA

                                   Bolger on Design Martha Jane #510 Revised

                                   The Martha Jane leeboard sharpie design was prepared
                                   in 1986 for the late Elrow LaRowe (named for Mrs.
                                   LaRowe). They were intended for efficient trailer
                                   hauling and for backwater camp-cruising. I commented
                                   in Boats With An Open Mind that One or two Martha
                                   Jane's have made offshore passages and kept the sea in
                                   gales. I wouldn't set off far to sea in one myself if
                                   I could help it. If I had to do it I would be very
                                   careful, but not much frightened.

                                   A large number of these boats have been built all over
                                   the world (LaRowe and others had rights to sell the
                                   plans at one time and another, and the numbers could
                                   be anywhere from several dozen to several hundred.) We
                                   have sailed two of them, finding them good sailers and
                                   exceptionally handy. All the owners that we heard from
                                   liked them, and several of them made notable inland
                                   and coastal cruises on their trailers and on their
                                   bottoms.

                                   In 1999 we heard from the second owner of one of them
                                   (which in previous hands had sailed for some years
                                   without problems), that the boat had capsized. We
                                   attributed the incident to flooding through an
                                   unsecured off-center open hatch, not on the plans,
                                   near the stern in the sunken afterdeck, but it
                                   happened again with the hatch closed. In the second
                                   case the boat recovered when her single-handed skipper
                                   got his weight out on the lowered weatherside
                                   leeboard.

                                   Early this year there was a more serious incident of a
                                   new boat which capsized, flooded, and turned
                                   bottom-up. This boat had been modified with a stern
                                   rudder and different ballasting, and the immediate
                                   cause of the accident was apparently the boat going
                                   out of control due to trouble with a mizzen sail, most
                                   of the ties of which had parted from the mast. But as
                                   far as we could tell her stability characteristics had
                                   not been significantly altered. The owner of this boat
                                   described the accident on the internet, and was
                                   contacted by several other owners whose boats had
                                   capsized. None of these had informed us, and still
                                   have not done so, but it looked as though the reserve
                                   stability of at least some boats of this class was
                                   less than we had estimated and had too little margin
                                   for inaccuracies in building, and for mistakes in
                                   handling, to be tolerated. Predictably, in boats of
                                   such light weight, MJs with cruising gear and supplies
                                   seemed to be steadier on their feet.

                                   Martha Jane was designed before it was customary, or
                                   practical with much accuracy, to calculate the
                                   stability of small boats. With advances in software
                                   and hardware capability and user-friendliness over the
                                   years, it has become decidedly easier to do, and we
                                   reassessed Martha Jane's characteristics across a
                                   range of structural weights, loads, and
                                   hull-geometries. The program has to be given a center
                                   of gravity, and calculating that accurately is still a
                                   tedious business.

                                   Stability Curve #1: We ran calculations for Martha
                                   Jane, on pessimistic assumptions of weight location,
                                   and found that her point of no return was about 60
                                   degrees, with a substantial negative range until the
                                   sealed and buoyant masts and yard immersed. Their
                                   volume stabilizes her and she should float on her side
                                   with masts under water. But if some force rolled her
                                   on down to 138 degrees she would go on to bottom-up.

                                   All this fits the reports: 60 degrees is an angle that
                                   most owners would not allow to happen; a boat might
                                   sail many years without being heeled that much, until
                                   some bad luck or bad handling showed up the danger
                                   point. Moreover, this characteristic is what most
                                   people expect of sharpies and of very shallow boats in
                                   general. Probably the reason we did not hear about the
                                   capsizes was that most people took it for granted that
                                   the boats were capsizable. Incidentally, we ran this
                                   check in both light and heavy weight estimates. The
                                   one shown is the heavy one, implying a weight of 2200
                                   lbs on the trailer with the water ballast dumped.

                                   The weakness of the design is in the very low actual
                                   freeboard forward and abaft the raised deck/cabin
                                   structure. It is masked by the high bulwarks, but the
                                   effective freeboard is to the top of the sunken deck,
                                   20" aft as designed and less with several people
                                   sitting there. If the boat is knocked down on her side
                                   the righting force of the watertight volume in the
                                   after part of the boat is only about a foot above the
                                   ballast center and actually below the center of
                                   gravity of the boat; that is, it tends to capsize her
                                   rather than to right her at extreme angles of heel.
                                   Also, in a beam-ends knockdown, the crew naturally
                                   brace themselves with feet on the lee gunwale, with
                                   their whole weight actually contributing to the
                                   capsizing force.

                                   Stability Curve #2: The low afterdeck is one of the
                                   pleasantest features of the design for comfort,
                                   shelter, security, and efficient weight placement for
                                   normal sailing angles of heel. Any retrofit to improve
                                   the reserve stability of the boats should retain this
                                   feature of the design. We therefore designed sponsons
                                   on the outside of the bulwarks at the stern. These
                                   sponsons add about 200 lbs of buoyancy on each side
                                   and make a substantial improvement in the boat's
                                   reserve buoyancy and reserve stability. They will have
                                   no noticable effect on the performance or behavior of
                                   the boat in normal sailing attitudes, and very little
                                   effect on her looks except for their shadow if the
                                   sides are light-colored.

                                   We recommend that these sponsons be fitted to all
                                   existing and new boats to the Martha Jane design. What
                                   they don't do is improve her potentiality for
                                   capsizing very much, since they don't take effect
                                   until the boat is past the capsizing angle. Boats with
                                   this modification will be much easier to right after a
                                   capsize; somebody getting out on a leeboard, or
                                   releasing the main halyard, should allow the boat to
                                   right herself, but alert sailing in puffy weather is
                                   still very desirable!

                                   Stability Curve #3: Thus we looked at the effect of
                                   adding some ballast. The boats can stand the weight,
                                   even the numerous ones that are more or less
                                   overweight. If the ballast is added in the form of a
                                   1/2" thick steel grounding shoe 4' long, amidships,
                                   and the full 6' width of the bottom we get about
                                   5OOlbs. This shoe can be faired in with shims and
                                   epoxy forward and aft. The added drag is negligible
                                   and the power to carry sail is increased; that is, she
                                   would be faster to windward in strong wind.

                                   Incidentally, none of these curves consider the effect
                                   of live ballast in normal sailing, although it is
                                   allowed for at the extreme angles when it may have a
                                   bad effect. Now this curve is in the "offshore" range;
                                   if she was rolled bottom-up by a breaking sea, the
                                   next wave would right her. As in all these curves, the
                                   sharp rise in positive stability beyond 100 degrees is
                                   caused by the buoyancy of the mast, yard, and boom as
                                   they're immersed. If she was dismasted in a violent
                                   rollover, she would be relieved of their weight and be
                                   much more stable over to 90 degrees.

                                   Stability Curve #4: The good effect of the ballast
                                   shoe depends in good part on the sponsons. Without
                                   them the stem would settle when the after deck
                                   immersed at extreme angles, and she would capsize at
                                   82 degrees.

                                   Other Upgrades, Stability Curves #5 and #6: We've
                                   taken the occasion to draw up some other upgrades
                                   suggested by fourteen years of experience with these
                                   and many other designs (a hundred and forty-eight
                                   designs since M-J). First, the windowed raised house
                                   amidships. This vastly improves the previously austere
                                   cuddy with 5'6" headroom (under the companionway
                                   hatch), and by creating a panoramic view out
                                   encourages crew to sit inside for shelter, shade, and
                                   improved sailing trim of the boat.

                                   The buoyancy of this much higher raised deck also
                                   produces a further large increase in the reserve
                                   stability and buoyancy of the boat, as shown in Curve
                                   #5. This one shows that the combination of added
                                   ballast and the high house produce a boat about as
                                   foolproof as they come. With the house but without the
                                   added ballast the effect isn't as dramatic but she's
                                   still entitled to be called self-righting (Curve #6).
                                   This option reduces the weight on the trailer by
                                   slightly less than 500 pounds (the higher house weighs
                                   a little more than thc original low raised deck by the
                                   amount of vertical structure in the form of framing
                                   and polycarbonate).

                                   We recommend that all Martha Jane's be retrofitted
                                   with the sponsons, and with either the added ballast
                                   or the high house, or both. house in other ways than
                                   stability, and it is Adding the ballast will be
                                   simpler on existing recommended. Since half of her now
                                   1,000lbs boats. New boats will benefit from the high
                                   ballast is water and can be left behind, adding }
                                   5OOlbs is too bad but should not ruin most tractor and
                                   trailer combinations.

                                   The house is shown extending over the forward end of
                                   the afterdeck, at the sides, to give some shelter
                                   there requiring a tiller extension. This overhang
                                   could be supplemented Bill Jochems' M-J in Colorado.
                                   No capsizes. 28 by a tent over the rest of the
                                   afterdeck to make it habitable at anchor in bad
                                   weather. We recommend this alteration in all new boats
                                   of the class, and that it be considered for existing
                                   boats especially if and when they are due for a major
                                   overhaul.

                                   The revised leeboard design, developed and tested in
                                   other designs over several years, will correct the
                                   tendency of the original leeboard design to kite off
                                   the hull. Existing leeboards will benefit by added
                                   ballast as close to the leading edges of the boards as
                                   possible. The new leeboard design allows both boards
                                   to be left down on all points of sailing, and precise
                                   adjustment of their position, independently of each
                                   other, for control of helm balance and steering
                                   steadiness. For instance, with one board down vertical
                                   or raked forward, and the other raked aft to the
                                   partly-hoisted position, the boat will tend to hold
                                   her course with free tiller for useful periods. With
                                   the pendant and downhaul arrangement of control, the
                                   boards need no ballast, eliminating the lead inserts
                                   and making them lighter to raise. This alteration is
                                   recommended for new boats and as a worthwhile retrofit
                                   to existing boats. In new construction this option
                                   will eliminate having to melt lead.

                                   Lastly, we show an optional steering arrangement with
                                   twin rudders on the stem, in place of the kick-up
                                   rudder under the hull. The original rudder design has
                                   been practically the only feature of the boat which
                                   elicited any complaints before the stability question
                                   came up. It gave sharp control, placed a simple tiller
                                   in ideal relationship with the best position for the
                                   helmsman, no dragging of her tail, and left the stem
                                   clear for a neat motor mounting position and for the
                                   mizzen sheet boomkin.

                                   The drawbacks were that it was reasonably complicated
                                   and costly to build and that it needed a cotter pin
                                   (or a bungee-cord rig) to keep it from kicking up when
                                   the boat reached a certain, not very fast, speed.
                                   Pencils made good cotter pins, being about the right
                                   strength to break if the exposed rudder struck or if
                                   the boat came down on it in a grounding.

                                   The twin rudders indicated are the best alternative we
                                   have thought of at this date. They are very simple to
                                   build and hang on standard heavier-duty pintles and
                                   gudgeon. They will give somewhat steadier, but not as
                                   quick, steering, will work on any draft that the boat
                                   can float on, and allow the cutout in the bottom panel
                                   to be eliminated. There might be a side effect at
                                   alarming angles of heel with the total effective
                                   rudder area in the water reduced when the windward one
                                   lifts clear of the water, and the leeward one being
                                   loaded up with additional pressure behind the pivot,
                                   the combined effect of which could be a degree of
                                   rounding up if overpressed. Until that's actually
                                   observed she is to be considered as having to be
                                   sailed by the helmsman in and out of potential
                                   trouble.

                                   Now Martha Jane is safer, a bit easier to build, with
                                   the savings in stainless and lead work put into
                                   polycarbonate transparency on the house, and while the
                                   original version served quite a few inland and ICW
                                   "roamers" well, she has become more of a cruiser yet.

                                   Complete plans for upgraded #510 Martha Jane on seven
                                   17"x 22" sheets are US $250 to build one boat. Upgrade
                                   on 2 sheets for #510 Martha Jane are US $50 to upgrade
                                   one extant boat.


                                  One owner/builder/skipper modified Martha Jane plys the coastal and reef waters of Eastern Australia from New Guinea to Tasmania - Arafura and Coral Seas to the Southern Ocean - raised deck throughout, inboard deisel, salient ballasted keel, transom hung rudder, central inside helm, a freedom-like yawl rig (sporting lovely sails)... has done for many years now, and a beauty to see pass by... I guess done somewhat on a wish two ;)

                                • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                                  ... C.Ruzer, Thank you for re-posting that info about the MJ revisions. There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Yes, I believe that "%" sign stands for degrees. The associated discussions circle around 15, 30, 40, 50 and a later calculated 60 degrees of no return if built as designed.... lots of angles......
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > .............One owner/builder/skipper modified Martha Jane plys the coastal and reef waters of Eastern Australia from New Guinea to Tasmania - Arafura and Coral Seas to the Southern Ocean - raised deck throughout, inboard deisel, salient ballasted keel, transom hung rudder, central inside helm, a freedom-like yawl rig (sporting lovely sails)... has done for many years now, and a beauty to see pass by... I guess done somewhat on a wish two ;)
                                    >

                                    C.Ruzer, Thank you for re-posting that info about the MJ revisions. There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly surprised to read Bolger had the thought to go with a steel shoe on the bottom also.

                                    I bought a set of MJ plans 2nd hand, but they turned out to be the original version of the design now being hijacked by Common Sense... I would only build from newly purchased PB&F plans.

                                    My purpose for such a boat would be to accomplish the Great Loop around the Eastern 1/2 of the USA. It is a epic voyage of rivers, lakes, canals and coastal cruising from sub-tropics to the North Atlantic, depending on the route chosen. IMO a motor sailer makes the most sense. Probably have to tow something carrying gasoline to feed the outboard for the longest motoring segments. I wouldn't give up interior space for even a small diesel.

                                    It is likely the trip would need to be done in segments. The boat would need to be parked in a marina along the way on the hard for a few months at a time. The durable steel shoe might make that a bit less nerve wracking.
                                  • phil.bolger
                                    There’s the option of WANDERVOGEL - only a concept so far, but you never know... Happy New Year. Susanne Altenburger, PB&F From: daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
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                                      There’s the option of WANDERVOGEL - only a concept so far, but you never know...
                                      Happy New Year.

                                      Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                       
                                      Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 8:34 PM
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Martha Jane heavy mast
                                       
                                       



                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Yes, I believe that "%" sign stands for degrees. The
                                      associated discussions circle around 15, 30, 40, 50 and a later calculated 60 degrees of no return if built as designed.... lots of angles......
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > .............One owner/builder/skipper modified Martha Jane
                                      plys the coastal and reef waters of Eastern Australia from New Guinea to Tasmania - Arafura and Coral Seas to the Southern Ocean - raised deck throughout, inboard deisel, salient ballasted keel, transom hung rudder, central inside helm, a freedom-like yawl rig (sporting lovely sails)... has done for many years now, and a beauty to see pass by... I guess done somewhat on a wish two ;)
                                      >

                                      C.Ruzer, Thank you for re-posting that info about the MJ revisions. There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly surprised to read Bolger had the thought to go with a steel shoe on the bottom also.

                                      I bought a set of MJ plans 2nd hand, but they turned out to be the original version of the design now being hijacked by Common Sense... I would only build from newly purchased PB&F plans.

                                      My purpose for such a boat would be to accomplish the Great Loop around the Eastern 1/2 of the USA. It is a epic voyage of rivers, lakes, canals and coastal cruising from sub-tropics to the North Atlantic, depending on the route chosen. IMO a motor sailer makes the most sense. Probably have to tow something carrying gasoline to feed the outboard for the longest motoring segments. I wouldn't give up interior space for even a small diesel.

                                      It is likely the trip would need to be done in segments. The boat would need to be parked in a marina along the way on the hard for a few months at a time. The durable steel shoe might make that a bit less nerve wracking.

                                    • c.ruzer
                                      You raise issues of integrity, transparency, honesty even, and fair dealing.. Here s something from a newsletter entry that s rather interesting about a
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
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                                        You raise issues of integrity, transparency, honesty even, and fair dealing..



                                        Here's something from a newsletter entry that's rather interesting about a slightly earlier design capsizing, Otter ll.  Note that the editor was already well into building a Martha Jane. It's a few lines contribution from Bolger, and from the  ===Instant Boatbuilder #7===, page 2:



                                        "RE: George Olson's comments on models, I'm not aware I would have been warned, as he was, about Otter ll's stability problem since I expected live ballast to be effective. I began to appreciate that there was a defect in the reasoning when the first two boats to the design, one in Boston and one in Australia, were reported to have capsized in embarrassing circumstances, and had swamped, which wasn't supposed to happen. Of course such a thing could not happen now since I've given up stupid and fallacious ideas.

                                        A model wil often reveal there's some defect in the design;; I'm always glad to see one made; but they can be treacherous, too, as

                                        2                                                                    continued next page


                                                                                                Bolger - Continued from previous page


                                        a couple of celebrated incidents with racing boats suggest.


                                        There's been a startling amount of interest in the "quick and easy speedboat" (SBJ"s phrasing), the 26 foot slipper-stern launch, or half-scale model Wyoming. Twenty-three sets of prints sold as of this morning, in spite of having printed enough dimensions to build it with the article. Who'd have thought it?"



                                        I read these newsletters from the late 80's or early 90's maybe 8 years ago, but the significance here only recently dawned on me that this was about the Otter ll design and not involving the wide spread MJ accusations and wanton maligning.  Otter ll was said  in "Different Boats" to be fit for reasonable coastwise passages. I don't believe there was mention ever anywhere else about Otter ll capsize issues frankly other than the above from an honestly transparent PCB himself.


                                        George Olson's comments re Otter ll appeared two issues prior in ===IBb #5===, page 4:


                                        "From George Olson
                                         Springfield, IL


                                        You might remind your readers that model building is a very good way to avoid dimensional mistakes on the full scale boat. If a large enough scale (say 1-1/2 inches to the foot) is chosen the model can be built to exact scale, including the lumber dimensions. Also, this is the cheapest way to build boats that I know and it allows one to have a new boat whenever desired. If suitable material is used then it can be painted and sailed. This is often very revealing as to appearance and performance.


                                        I avoided building an Otter II as I found the model required too much lead to keep her upright and too much foam to avoid sinking. I notice that Phil Bolger came to the same conclusion and is now not very satisfied with the design. Hence his Martha Jane.."



                                        ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                        ...There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly surprised to read Bolger had the thought to go with a steel shoe on the bottom also.

                                        I bought a set of MJ plans 2nd hand, but they turned out to be the original version of the design now being hijacked by Common Sense... I would only build from newly purchased PB&F plans.
                                      • c.ruzer
                                        You raise issues of integrity, transparency, honesty even, and fair dealing.. Here s something from a newsletter entry that s rather interesting about a
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment

                                          You raise issues of integrity, transparency, honesty even, and fair dealing..



                                          Here's something from a newsletter entry that's rather interesting about a slightly earlier design capsizing, Otter ll.  Note that the editor was already well into building a Martha Jane. It's a few lines contribution from Bolger, and from the  ===Instant Boatbuilder #7===, page 2:



                                          "RE: George Olson's comments on models, I'm not aware I would have been warned, as he was, about Otter ll's stability problem since I expected live ballast to be effective. I began to appreciate that there was a defect in the reasoning when the first two boats to the design, one in Boston and one in Australia, were reported to have capsized in embarrassing circumstances, and had swamped, which wasn't supposed to happen. Of course such a thing could not happen now since I've given up stupid and fallacious ideas.

                                          A model wil often reveal there's some defect in the design;; I'm always glad to see one made; but they can be treacherous, too, as

                                          2                                                                    continued next page


                                                                                                  Bolger - Continued from previous page


                                          a couple of celebrated incidents with racing boats suggest.


                                          There's been a startling amount of interest in the "quick and easy speedboat" (SBJ"s phrasing), the 26 foot slipper-stern launch, or half-scale model Wyoming. Twenty-three sets of prints sold as of this morning, in spite of having printed enough dimensions to build it with the article. Who'd have thought it?"



                                          I read these newsletters from the late 80's or early 90's maybe 8 years ago, but the significance here only recently dawned on me that this was about the Otter ll design and not involving the wide spread MJ accusations and wanton maligning.  Otter ll was said  in "Different Boats" to be fit for reasonable coastwise passages. I don't believe there was mention ever anywhere else about Otter ll capsize issues frankly other than the above from an honestly transparent PCB himself.


                                          George Olson's comments re Otter ll appeared two issues prior in ===IBb #5===, page 4:


                                          "From George Olson
                                           Springfield, IL


                                          You might remind your readers that model building is a very good way to avoid dimensional mistakes on the full scale boat. If a large enough scale (say 1-1/2 inches to the foot) is chosen the model can be built to exact scale, including the lumber dimensions. Also, this is the cheapest way to build boats that I know and it allows one to have a new boat whenever desired. If suitable material is used then it can be painted and sailed. This is often very revealing as to appearance and performance.


                                          I avoided building an Otter II as I found the model required too much lead to keep her upright and too much foam to avoid sinking. I notice that Phil Bolger came to the same conclusion and is now not very satisfied with the design. Hence his Martha Jane.."





                                          ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <c.ruzer@...> wrote:

                                          ...There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly surprised to read Bolger had the thought to go with a steel shoe on the bottom also.

                                          I bought a set of MJ plans 2nd hand, but they turned out to be the original version of the design now being hijacked by Common Sense... I would only build from newly purchased PB&F plans.


                                        • c.ruzer
                                          Happy New Year, Susanne. Photos of a model Wandervogel - http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Bolger3/photos/albums/1748120119
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Dec 31, 2013
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                                            Happy New Year, Susanne.



                                            Photos of a model Wandervogel - http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Bolger3/photos/albums/1748120119


                                            Not much known of this one. Certainly looks good for the epic and scenic "Loop"..

                                          • daschultz8275@sbcglobal.net
                                            ... --end quote. I commented on Common Sense s widely reported hijacking of the MJ design plans (MicroTrawler also, maybe others? Don t recall). Sad that
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 2, 2014
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                                              > ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > ...There was much more information than I had read previously. I was pleasantly surprised to read Bolger had the thought to go with a steel shoe on the bottom also.
                                              >
                                              > I bought a set of MJ plans 2nd hand, but they turned out to be the original version of the design now being hijacked by Common Sense... I would only build from newly purchased PB&F plans.
                                              >
                                              --end quote.

                                              I commented on Common Sense's widely reported hijacking of the MJ design plans (MicroTrawler also, maybe others? Don't recall). Sad that PB&F's work is exploited in this way.

                                              But I hope you don't think I questioned PCB's transparency regarding the issue re MJ and knockdowns. Not my intent at all. I didn't realize there was much debate. I remember reading something I think was written by PCB that an MJ had gotten knocked down (on a shallow lake? in Aus' or NZ?)and had gone turtle. He then decided to add the sponsons and the the house.

                                              I saw an Otter several years ago available for sale in Illinois but I quickly decided it didn't suit my desires.
                                            • c.ruzer
                                              Not at all. Just trying to say how open and straight the guy was. Stuff happens, he didn t obfuscate or fudge. Some opinions he had... now , now, politics...
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 3, 2014
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                                                Not at all. Just trying to say how open and straight the guy was. Stuff happens, he didn't obfuscate or fudge. Some opinions he had... now , now, politics... here the socialists are right wing and the right wing are liberals and there's a generational gestalt thing as always... I don't know who's billygoat skull would crack first in having that out, if either, but it weren't a put on.


                                                The Otter ll  Australian incident as described by PCB is the only account I know of. The only account! There have been numerous accounts of an Australian Matha Jane(s) capsizing, mostly on the intertube, but some in mags. This got a go on about the turn of the century. The southern hemisphere representative of Bruce Kirby NIS boats and former Mr duckflat hisself flogged the story in print for all it was worth for a while in the noughties especially after making a  well planned Corner Inlet to Hobart crossing without event in an NIS26.. I leave it to you to figure the whys and wherefores there... There was some hostility whipped up by assorted vested competing interests about Bolger box boats to which PCB&F and Roger Keyes, skipper of Micro SV the famous "Paloma Blanca", authoritatively replied in AABB with the result that not much was heard of that matter again there...


                                                As for the OZ MJs capsizing, well in these archives you'll see Mr Cheers had some worries, and in Files you'll see that in "Common Sense News" Vol 14, Issue 2, 1998  #3, at page 5 "Marta Jane", Bernie Wolfard wrote:


                                                "I have been selling plans for Martha Jane since 1988, and always thought it would a boat build (sic) if I lived where there are great expanses of shallow water. I have relayed stories of the mad Australian who regularly sails his MJ from South Australia to Tasmania and back, and how on his first trip related that he was knocked down six times. But until this summer I had never actually seen a MJ, much less sailed on one..."

                                                 

                                                A Bass Straight crossing is hardly ever a picnic cruise. That guy and that boat are the same I mentioned previously that cruise to this day the coast from the Bismark Sea to the Southern Ocean, albeit in modified form. He does a yogi routine every morning at sunrise on the foredeck which is an awsome sight in itself through morning mists... The Tysons, bogerado boatbuilders of note, met him (and partner M - another brilliant Hartley 21 cruising story ongoing) the first time he was overcome blown offshore from the mainland and up and down the straight for days to end washed up in north Tassie. Hugo T once said here it was down to imbibing the jujube, or noni juice, or some such, but I don't buy that... I've met them on the water, seen them and their boats dance, sorry, sail... outsail!


                                                ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                                                > ---In bolger@yahoogroups.com, <daschultz8275@> wrote:


                                                But I hope you don't think I questioned PCB's transparency regarding the issue re MJ and knockdowns. Not my intent at all. I didn't realize there was much debate. I remember reading something I think was written by PCB that an MJ had gotten knocked down (on a shallow lake? in Aus' or NZ?)and had gone turtle. He then decided to add the sponsons and the the house.

                                                I saw an Otter several years ago available for sale in Illinois but I quickly decided it didn't suit my desires.
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