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[bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats

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  • djost
    My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive buoyancy. This is
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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      My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
      centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
      buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like a pair
      of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they grip
      the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
      combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
      Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will lift
      about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed of the
      boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised anyway.

      The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I think
      that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft. I had
      occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The mast
      was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two boards
      since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.

      Peter Vanderwaart wrote:

      > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
      >
      > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
      > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
      > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
      > use epoxy instead of polyester.
      >
      > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
      > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
      >
      > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
      > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
      > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
      > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
      > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
      > showers could be used as a core material.
      >
      > Peter
      >
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    • Peter Vanderwaart
      Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the rubber friction
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which
        was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the
        rubber friction device had a couple of screws. If you tightened them
        down, the rubber squished to the sides, increasing friction.

        Once when the friction wasn't holding the board down properly at a
        regatta, we tied it down. Then, when we hit a reef, the board broke at
        the pivot pin.

        Peter.

        djost <djos-@...> wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2183
        > My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
        > centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
        > buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like
        a pair
        > of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they
        grip
        > the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
        > combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
        > Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will
        lift
        > about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed
        of the
        > boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised
        anyway.
        >
        > The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I
        think
        > that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft.
        I had
        > occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The
        mast
        > was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two
        boards
        > since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.
        >
        > Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
        >
        > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
        > >
        > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work
        well. It
        > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
        convenience
        > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
        > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
        > >
        > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
        that
        > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
        > >
        > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
        > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
        aluminum
        > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
        > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
        sort
        > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
        under
        > > showers could be used as a core material.
        > >
        > > Peter
        > >
      • Fraser Howell
        My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 exterior ply enclosing 1/4 aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was formulated to stick to
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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          My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 " exterior ply enclosing
          1/4" aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was
          formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
          the end of the first season. I then wrapped the edges in cloth and
          epoxy, but that got stuck in the case by mid-summer. I've given up on
          glue for the centrboard, and on trying to make the affair waterproof. I
          riveted the whole thing with copper rivets prior to last season, and
          have had no problems. The board is rigid, and takes the ground well, and
          only needed about 3 lb of lead to sink properly.
          The Chebacco rudder is welded al, and it has held up well. It has a
          horizontal plate on the bottom, and I use it as a boarding ladder when
          swimming.
          Cheers;
          Fraser Howell
        • Robert N. Lundy
          Oooo.... Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I m amazed at some of the original thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Oooo....

            Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
            thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
            give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
            lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
            thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
            first place.

            Neat idea. Who wants to try it?

            Robert & Amy Lundy
            St. Petersburg, fla.
            robert@...
            amy@...


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
            > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
            > To: bolger@...
            > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
            >
            >
            >
            > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
            >
            > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
            > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
            > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
            > use epoxy instead of polyester.
            >
            > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
            > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
            >
            > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
            > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
            > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
            > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
            > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
            > showers could be used as a core material.
            >
            > Peter
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          • Lincoln Ross
            An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to get a really
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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              An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
              be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
              get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
              rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
              critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
              thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
              prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

              fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
              snipglued it with an epoxy that was
              > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
              > the end of the first season.
              >
            • John Bell
              I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he tried everything
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate
                sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he
                tried everything to get that aluminum to stick because the tips getting
                knocked out was the number one reason for returns. His solution to the
                problem was pretty simple. He would drill a number of holes in the aluminum.
                Then, he'd thread the holes with thick fiberglass yarn pulled off a piece of
                heavy glass cloth. Then he would slather the slot in the tip of the paddle
                with epoxy and slide the aluminum tip in. He later converted to plastic tips
                using this technique. I suspect it would work pretty well for making a
                plywood centerboard with an aluminum center, too.

                John Bell
                Kennesaw, GA
                jmbell@...
                http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
                To: <bolger@...>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:32 PM
                Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                > be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                > get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                > rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                > critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                > thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                > prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.
                >
                > fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                > snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                > > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                > > the end of the first season.
                > >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              • Lincoln Ross
                The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps, but if you have a
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat
                  will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps,
                  but if you have a little oil in there I'll bet you are still sunk.

                  david <galvin-@...> wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2202
                  > Lincoln:
                  > The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals
                  where
                  > you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                  > epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpapersnip
                  > > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that snip
                • david
                  Lincoln: The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                    Lincoln:
                    The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpaper to achieve a raw surface onto which the epoxy and thus the wood, can bond. The sanding dust remains in the epoxy, where it presumably does no harm. I haven't tried this, but it seems workable on aluminum, and would save you the demanding surface prep that is usually required, as you suggest. Someone mentioned fastening the plywood to the aluminum with copper rivets, I think. In seawater I believe this would turn the board into a nice battery and rapidly devour the aluminum. You could get away with it in most fresh water environments, however,
                    david

                    Lincoln Ross wrote:

                    An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                    be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                    get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                    rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                    critical. Not to even be touched with hands.  One trick was to put on
                    thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                    prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                    fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                    snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                    > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                    > the end of the first season.
                    >

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                  • Bill Samson
                    ... A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made sure that it s not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That d have the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
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                      >get the **$�$! board out,
                      >plane it
                      > > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.
                      >
                      >
                      >Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                      >the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                      >
                      >

                      A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made
                      sure that it's not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That'd have the
                      same effect as a swelling board (though harder to fix). The slot should be
                      1.5" wide all over. The board should be 1.25" thick in the middle.

                      Have PCB&F got any views on the suitability of a steel centreplate for a
                      Chebacco?

                      Bill

                      Bill

                      Bill
                      ______________________________________________________
                    • Fries, John
                      Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead in the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
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                        Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of
                        building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                        in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                        heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be filled
                        with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the wood/concrete
                        interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                        further waterproofing. Is this crazy?

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                        > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                        > To: bolger@egroups.com
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                        >
                        > Oooo....
                        >
                        > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                        > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                        > would
                        > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                        > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                        > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                        > first place.
                        >
                        > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                        >
                        > Robert & Amy Lundy
                        > St. Petersburg, fla.
                        > robert@...
                        > amy@...
                        >
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                        > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                        > > To: bolger@...
                        > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                        > >
                        > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                        > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                        > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                        > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                        > >
                        > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                        > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                        > >
                        > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                        > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                        > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                        > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                        > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                        > > showers could be used as a core material.
                        > >
                        > > Peter
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                        > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                        > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                        > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                      • Fries, John
                        Yes, that s a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a distributed processing
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
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                          Yes, that's a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds
                          working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a 'distributed
                          processing platform' for all of us biological computers.

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Chuck Leinweber [SMTP:duckworks@...]
                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:15 PM
                          > To: bolger@egroups.com
                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          >
                          > John:
                          >
                          > IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to
                          > odd
                          > shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                          > plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?
                          >
                          > Chuck Leinweber
                          > Duckworks Magazine
                          > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                          > To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                          > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          >
                          >
                          > > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                          > of
                          > > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the
                          > lead
                          > > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                          > > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                          > filled
                          > > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                          > wood/concrete
                          > > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy
                          > for
                          > > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                          > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                          > > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                          > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          > > >
                          > > > Oooo....
                          > > >
                          > > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                          > original
                          > > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                          > > > would
                          > > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                          > the
                          > > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                          > whole
                          > > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in
                          > the
                          > > > first place.
                          > > >
                          > > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                          > > >
                          > > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                          > > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                          > > > robert@...
                          > > > amy@...
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                          > > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                          > > > > To: bolger@...
                          > > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                          > It
                          > > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                          > convenience
                          > > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                          > > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                          > that
                          > > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                          > > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                          > aluminum
                          > > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                          > > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                          > sort
                          > > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                          > under
                          > > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Peter
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                          > > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                          > > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                          > > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          > > >
                          > >
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                        • Chuck Leinweber
                          John: IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it s ability to conform to odd shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn t steel
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
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                            John:

                            IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to odd
                            shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                            plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?

                            Chuck Leinweber
                            Duckworks Magazine
                            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                            To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                            > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                            of
                            > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                            > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                            > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                            filled
                            > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                            wood/concrete
                            > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                            > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                            >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                            > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                            > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                            > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            > >
                            > > Oooo....
                            > >
                            > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                            original
                            > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                            > > would
                            > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                            the
                            > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                            whole
                            > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                            > > first place.
                            > >
                            > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                            > >
                            > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                            > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                            > > robert@...
                            > > amy@...
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                            > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                            > > > To: bolger@...
                            > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                            > > >
                            > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                            It
                            > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                            convenience
                            > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                            > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                            > > >
                            > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                            that
                            > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                            > > >
                            > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                            > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                            > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                            > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                            > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                            > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                            > > >
                            > > > Peter
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
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