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[bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats

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  • Peter Vanderwaart
    My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems. Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It would be heavy enought to do
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
      My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.

      Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
      would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
      in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
      use epoxy instead of polyester.

      The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
      the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.

      There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
      who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
      core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
      some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
      waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
      showers could be used as a core material.

      Peter
    • djost
      My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive buoyancy. This is
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
        My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
        centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
        buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like a pair
        of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they grip
        the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
        combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
        Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will lift
        about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed of the
        boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised anyway.

        The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I think
        that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft. I had
        occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The mast
        was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two boards
        since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.

        Peter Vanderwaart wrote:

        > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
        >
        > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
        > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
        > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
        > use epoxy instead of polyester.
        >
        > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
        > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
        >
        > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
        > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
        > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
        > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
        > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
        > showers could be used as a core material.
        >
        > Peter
        >
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      • Peter Vanderwaart
        Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the rubber friction
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
          Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which
          was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the
          rubber friction device had a couple of screws. If you tightened them
          down, the rubber squished to the sides, increasing friction.

          Once when the friction wasn't holding the board down properly at a
          regatta, we tied it down. Then, when we hit a reef, the board broke at
          the pivot pin.

          Peter.

          djost <djos-@...> wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2183
          > My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
          > centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
          > buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like
          a pair
          > of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they
          grip
          > the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
          > combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
          > Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will
          lift
          > about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed
          of the
          > boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised
          anyway.
          >
          > The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I
          think
          > that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft.
          I had
          > occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The
          mast
          > was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two
          boards
          > since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.
          >
          > Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
          >
          > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
          > >
          > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work
          well. It
          > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
          convenience
          > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
          > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
          > >
          > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
          that
          > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
          > >
          > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
          > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
          aluminum
          > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
          > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
          sort
          > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
          under
          > > showers could be used as a core material.
          > >
          > > Peter
          > >
        • Fraser Howell
          My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 exterior ply enclosing 1/4 aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was formulated to stick to
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
            My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 " exterior ply enclosing
            1/4" aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was
            formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
            the end of the first season. I then wrapped the edges in cloth and
            epoxy, but that got stuck in the case by mid-summer. I've given up on
            glue for the centrboard, and on trying to make the affair waterproof. I
            riveted the whole thing with copper rivets prior to last season, and
            have had no problems. The board is rigid, and takes the ground well, and
            only needed about 3 lb of lead to sink properly.
            The Chebacco rudder is welded al, and it has held up well. It has a
            horizontal plate on the bottom, and I use it as a boarding ladder when
            swimming.
            Cheers;
            Fraser Howell
          • Robert N. Lundy
            Oooo.... Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I m amazed at some of the original thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
              Oooo....

              Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
              thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
              give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
              lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
              thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
              first place.

              Neat idea. Who wants to try it?

              Robert & Amy Lundy
              St. Petersburg, fla.
              robert@...
              amy@...


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
              > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
              > To: bolger@...
              > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
              >
              >
              >
              > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
              >
              > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
              > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
              > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
              > use epoxy instead of polyester.
              >
              > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
              > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
              >
              > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
              > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
              > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
              > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
              > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
              > showers could be used as a core material.
              >
              > Peter
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            • Lincoln Ross
              An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to get a really
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                > the end of the first season.
                >
              • John Bell
                I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he tried everything
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                  I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate
                  sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he
                  tried everything to get that aluminum to stick because the tips getting
                  knocked out was the number one reason for returns. His solution to the
                  problem was pretty simple. He would drill a number of holes in the aluminum.
                  Then, he'd thread the holes with thick fiberglass yarn pulled off a piece of
                  heavy glass cloth. Then he would slather the slot in the tip of the paddle
                  with epoxy and slide the aluminum tip in. He later converted to plastic tips
                  using this technique. I suspect it would work pretty well for making a
                  plywood centerboard with an aluminum center, too.

                  John Bell
                  Kennesaw, GA
                  jmbell@...
                  http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
                  To: <bolger@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:32 PM
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                  > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                  > be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                  > get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                  > rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                  > critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                  > thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                  > prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.
                  >
                  > fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                  > snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                  > > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                  > > the end of the first season.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                • Lincoln Ross
                  The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps, but if you have a
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                    The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat
                    will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps,
                    but if you have a little oil in there I'll bet you are still sunk.

                    david <galvin-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2202
                    > Lincoln:
                    > The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals
                    where
                    > you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                    > epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpapersnip
                    > > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that snip
                  • david
                    Lincoln: The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                      Lincoln:
                      The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpaper to achieve a raw surface onto which the epoxy and thus the wood, can bond. The sanding dust remains in the epoxy, where it presumably does no harm. I haven't tried this, but it seems workable on aluminum, and would save you the demanding surface prep that is usually required, as you suggest. Someone mentioned fastening the plywood to the aluminum with copper rivets, I think. In seawater I believe this would turn the board into a nice battery and rapidly devour the aluminum. You could get away with it in most fresh water environments, however,
                      david

                      Lincoln Ross wrote:

                      An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                      be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                      get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                      rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                      critical. Not to even be touched with hands.  One trick was to put on
                      thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                      prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                      fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                      snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                      > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                      > the end of the first season.
                      >

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                    • Bill Samson
                      ... A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made sure that it s not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That d have the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                        >get the **$�$! board out,
                        >plane it
                        > > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.
                        >
                        >
                        >Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                        >the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                        >
                        >

                        A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made
                        sure that it's not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That'd have the
                        same effect as a swelling board (though harder to fix). The slot should be
                        1.5" wide all over. The board should be 1.25" thick in the middle.

                        Have PCB&F got any views on the suitability of a steel centreplate for a
                        Chebacco?

                        Bill

                        Bill

                        Bill
                        ______________________________________________________
                      • Fries, John
                        Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead in the
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                          Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of
                          building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                          in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                          heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be filled
                          with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the wood/concrete
                          interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                          further waterproofing. Is this crazy?

                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                          > To: bolger@egroups.com
                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          >
                          > Oooo....
                          >
                          > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                          > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                          > would
                          > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                          > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                          > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                          > first place.
                          >
                          > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                          >
                          > Robert & Amy Lundy
                          > St. Petersburg, fla.
                          > robert@...
                          > amy@...
                          >
                          >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                          > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                          > > To: bolger@...
                          > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                          > >
                          > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                          > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                          > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                          > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                          > >
                          > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                          > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                          > >
                          > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                          > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                          > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                          > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                          > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                          > > showers could be used as a core material.
                          > >
                          > > Peter
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                          > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                        • Fries, John
                          Yes, that s a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a distributed processing
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                            Yes, that's a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds
                            working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a 'distributed
                            processing platform' for all of us biological computers.

                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Chuck Leinweber [SMTP:duckworks@...]
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:15 PM
                            > To: bolger@egroups.com
                            > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            >
                            > John:
                            >
                            > IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to
                            > odd
                            > shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                            > plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?
                            >
                            > Chuck Leinweber
                            > Duckworks Magazine
                            > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                            > To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                            > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                            > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            >
                            >
                            > > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                            > of
                            > > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the
                            > lead
                            > > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                            > > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                            > filled
                            > > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                            > wood/concrete
                            > > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy
                            > for
                            > > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                            > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                            > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                            > > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                            > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            > > >
                            > > > Oooo....
                            > > >
                            > > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                            > original
                            > > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                            > > > would
                            > > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                            > the
                            > > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                            > whole
                            > > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in
                            > the
                            > > > first place.
                            > > >
                            > > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                            > > >
                            > > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                            > > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                            > > > robert@...
                            > > > amy@...
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                            > > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                            > > > > To: bolger@...
                            > > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                            > It
                            > > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                            > convenience
                            > > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                            > > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                            > that
                            > > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                            > > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                            > aluminum
                            > > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                            > > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                            > sort
                            > > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                            > under
                            > > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Peter
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                            > > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          • Chuck Leinweber
                            John: IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it s ability to conform to odd shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn t steel
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                              John:

                              IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to odd
                              shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                              plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?

                              Chuck Leinweber
                              Duckworks Magazine
                              http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                              To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                              > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                              of
                              > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                              > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                              > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                              filled
                              > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                              wood/concrete
                              > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                              > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                              >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                              > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                              > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                              > >
                              > > Oooo....
                              > >
                              > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                              original
                              > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                              > > would
                              > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                              the
                              > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                              whole
                              > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                              > > first place.
                              > >
                              > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                              > >
                              > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                              > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                              > > robert@...
                              > > amy@...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                              > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                              > > > To: bolger@...
                              > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                              > > >
                              > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                              It
                              > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                              convenience
                              > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                              > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                              > > >
                              > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                              that
                              > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                              > > >
                              > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                              > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                              > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                              > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                              > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                              > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                              > > >
                              > > > Peter
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
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