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[bolger] Re: sharpie stability/recovery

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  • David Ryan
    FBBB -- I m glad I asked. My understanding continues to grow. A couple of thoughts/questions: 1) As I said before, I am convinced that *most* boats are
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 1, 2000
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      FBBB --

      I'm glad I asked. My understanding continues to grow.

      A couple of thoughts/questions:

      1) As I said before, I am convinced that *most* boats are designed
      with salability, not sailabilitly as their primary design
      consideration. I think what has impressed my most about BWAOM is that
      PCB is willing to realistically consider the way a boat will actually
      be used. His comment about LM spending more time in port than in
      ocean crossing, and then the resulting design really spoke to me. On
      the other hand, since most boats spend most of their time tied up,
      maybe a imitation offshore racer sponsors (that you don't actually
      sail) sponsors more satisfying fantasies than a big Bolger box (that
      you don't actually sail.) People sure get a big kick out of driving
      SUVs will never see a dirt trail.

      2) Tacking: Given similiar waterlines/rocker, is a narrower boat
      harder to tack? Or is it simply that longer boats are harder to turn?
      And besides, how often do you tack your LM on a trip from France to
      Jamaica?

      3) Multi-masts/Aero efficiency. As I understand it, multiple masts
      are an answer to the practical limits of mast height, i.e. clippers
      couldn't got as high as they wanted, so they went wide. Is this a
      correct understanding? If it isn't, what is correct. If it is, where
      are the practical lower limits (of hull size) of many small masts vs.
      one big one?

      What I am envisioning is a very long, very lean cruiser. She'd have
      less sail, less beam, and more waterline. Doesn't tack very well? Who
      cares, I'm on a beam reach for the next 1500 miles! No deep heavy
      keel? If I can't get the nose into the wind and a sea anchor out,
      I'll ride out the blow on my side (like Kerby's timber carrying
      schooner,) confident my topsides will keep my from going any further.

      Has Bolger or anyone else designed such a beast? If so, what are her
      strengths? faults?

      YIBB,


      David Ryan
      Minister of Information and Culture
      Crumbling Empire Productions
      (212) 247-0296
    • ed haile
      ... I think the issue here is maneuverability, something you don t give up lightly. ... The limit is sail size vs crew. Not mast height. Clippers had masts
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 1, 2000
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        > 2) Tacking: how often do you tack your LM on a trip from France to
        > Jamaica?

        I think the issue here is maneuverability, something you don't give up
        lightly.

        >
        > 3) Multi-masts/Aero efficiency. As I understand it, multiple masts
        > are an answer to the practical limits of mast height, i.e. clippers
        > couldn't got as high as they wanted, so they went wide. Is this a
        > correct understanding? If it isn't, what is correct. If it is, where
        > are the practical lower limits (of hull size) of many small masts vs.
        > one big one?

        The limit is sail size vs crew. Not mast height. Clippers had masts
        plenty high. But compare them to what went before and you see much
        taller masts together with much smaller sails. They furled more than
        they reefed and some prefer that on our-size boats. I think the Jochems
        schooner has a lot of sails for an under-25 footer. Some might think
        the main on a Loose Moose is a monster.

        >
        > What I am envisioning is a very long, very lean cruiser. She'd have
        > less sail, less beam, and more waterline. Doesn't tack very well? Who
        > cares, I'm on a beam reach for the next 1500 miles! No deep heavy
        > keel? If I can't get the nose into the wind and a sea anchor out,
        > I'll ride out the blow on my side (like Kerby's timber carrying
        > schooner,) confident my topsides will keep my from going any further.

        You might consider comfort important too, after a couple of blows. But
        maneuverability.

        >
        > Has Bolger or anyone else designed such a beast? If so, what are her
        > strengths? faults?
        >
        > YIBB,

        The very question I put to PCB years ago: how about a long low-rig
        sailing canoe? He referred me to the folding schooner. If he has
        designed a proa since then, he might now mention that.

        > David Ryan
        > Minister of Information and Culture
        > Crumbling Empire Productions
        > (212) 247-0296
      • Wmrpage@aol.com
        How about this concept? Sail power is only required for those long hauls from Bermuda to the Azores, Canaries to Carribean - all down-hill sailing. Why use a
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 3, 2000
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          How about this concept? Sail power is only required for those long hauls from
          Bermuda to the Azores, Canaries to Carribean - all down-hill sailing. Why use
          a conventional rig, requiring a substantial righting moment (ballast or beam
          = expense), if there was an alternative? My thought is of a reasonably long,
          narrow, lightly balanced "box" suitable for low-powered internal combustion
          engine operation in coastal waters, inland waters and canals, just
          sufficiently ballasted for self-righting, with hatches amidship, etc. for
          off-shore survivability. For the ocean crossings, one would use some form of
          traction kites. Thrust from the kite could be taken at the rail by snatch
          blocks. ( very low c.e. = low stability requirement for thrust developed).
          Sail area ( I get the impression that projecting adequate non-chafing
          downwind sail area in the Trades can be a problem with conventional boats)
          would be independent of mast dimensions (low windage, low cost, low clearance
          in canals). My perusal of traction kiting websites (e.g.
          DaveCulpSpeedSailing) hasn't done much to dispel my ignorance of how such
          kites are deployed and managed, but it does seem to me that they could
          develop as much power as one could desire on courses up to at least a broad
          reach with minimal heeling force. A buttoned-up hull of "Tennessee" or
          "Wyoming" type dimensions (provided with some appendage to provide a suitable
          CLR) might be one hell of a downwind sled.

          Bill Page in the land of HARD water (MN)
        • tjfatchen@ace.net.au
          BO Another aspect of all this, namely high freeboard. I had long objected BO to high sided boats as being such for the sake of too much downstairs BO at the
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 11, 2000
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            BO>Another aspect of all this, namely high freeboard. I had long objected
            BO>to high sided boats as being such for the sake of too much "downstairs"
            BO>at the cost of excessive windage topside.
            <snip>
            BO>I became convinced that high freeboard was not a bad idea from a
            BO>windage standpoint, and from there to Bolger's statement that shallow
            BO>draft requires high freeboard.

            BO>Ed Haile

            I was originally alarmed at the windage possibilities of the AS29 hull,
            particularly given the necessity to get out of tight and narrow marinas
            (and back in) at dead slow speeds with vicious crosswinds. We did have
            windage problems, in particular the bow falling off, but all to do with
            the windage of the mainmast (which is quite respectable). The hull
            itself, with boards down, is close to neutral.

            Now, if they'd allow us to sail in and out of marina, we wouldnt have
            any trouble at all....

            Tim & Lady Kate
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