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[bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats

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  • Richard
    For my D4 learning experiance, I used CDX pine from Home Depot and Titebond II glue. Haven t see any warping in the water or caused by rain yet.
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 30, 2000
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      For my D4 learning experiance, I used CDX pine from Home Depot and Titebond II glue. Haven't see any warping in the water or caused by rain yet.

      "Behrendt, Tom" wrote:

      Hi all:

      In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on
      learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
      first-timer stupidity, but here's my experiences for what they are worth.
      Dagger board was built of 2 pieces of 1/4" ACX ply epoxied together and clear
      (unthickened) epoxy coated on the outside. The "glueing" epoxy was not
      thickened enough, first time it rained with the board outside the lamination
      ripped apart, both sides cupped significantly, I saw many areas on the inside
      that did not bond properly due to lack of epoxy. Where it did bond properly,
      the wood tore apart at one of the other glue lines (i.e the glue lines in the
      original plywood). Moral of the story, warping is a powerful force! As it was
      near the end of the season, and we just wanted to get the boat in the water, I
      went with a single 1/4' board, epoxy coated. Put it in the water it bends like
      a banana (lengthwise warping) in about 5 minutes. Take it out and it dries to
      more or less straight in a day or two. Put it back in...banana! As we were
      still able to get it up and down the daggerboard trunk even in it's banana
      shape and it didn't effect the boat's performance much my son and I just lived
      with it, I'll cook up something better for the next season.  I think that the
      boat gets slightly more leeway when it's on the port tack, the curve - convex
      side - facing downwind, my son doesn't think so, but he's been sailing a few
      decades less than me. Either way it works "OK" for now. The rudder, on the
      other hand is made out of a single piece of 1/2" nameless scrap ply and has not
      warped at all. The strange part is that this particular piece of scrap has been
      sitting out in my yard for at least two years, I used it as a rudder
      specifically because it hadn't warped in all that time, this greyish,
      dirt-stained hunk of ply. Go figure.

      As for the "correct" way to do it, Dynamite Payson strongly reccomends using
      marine ply for boards, even if you are using "el cheapo" ply for the rest, hows
      that for backwards? Dave Carnell repeatedly writes that epoxy-coating is
      useless for waterproffing and my experiences with the coated boards seem to
      agree with that reasoning. I would assume that making a glass board involves
      using glass cloth/matt around a core of some sort, as written up by others in
      this thread. Would enough layers keep significant moisture away from a cheap
      wood core? Dunno. But, seeing as how any warping WILL crack your board, and
      given the amount of epoxy you'd be using for an expiramental wood-core board, I
      think that one would be better off going with a foam core in the first place,
      after all, that's what the surfboarders do nowadays - the old "woodie"
      longboards are laminates if I remember correctly (laminated perpendicular to
      the board surface). Does anyone have experience with topnotch marine-ply
      boards?

      Cheers!

      Tom

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    • Fries, John
      Don t know about wheather glass boards are standard on glass boats but, if I were to build one at home, I think I would start with quarter inch ply as the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Don't know about wheather glass boards are standard on glass boats but, if I
        were to build one at home, I think I would start with quarter inch ply as
        the core. Then apply layers of glass and epoxy to the desired thickness.
        Being totally encapsulated (really encapsulated) by several layers would
        prevent the core from warping. Alternatively, you could use some dense foam
        as the core (like a surfboard) or even a stiff piece of plastic.

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Tim Smith [SMTP:timk_smith@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:53 AM
        > To: bolger@...
        > Subject: [bolger] glass boards in wooden boats
        >
        > The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
        > replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
        > Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
        > shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:
        >
        > "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
        > strong,
        > tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
        > straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
        > permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
        > board."
        >
        > Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
        > ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
        > boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
        > wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?
        >
        >
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      • GHC
        Of course - some are solid, some are foam + glass, some are glassed wood. Gregg Carlson
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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          Of course - some are solid, some are foam + glass, some are glassed wood.

          Gregg Carlson

          At 08:53 AM 2/1/2000 -0800, you wrote:
          >The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
          >replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
          >Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
          >shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:
          >
          >"Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
          >strong,
          >tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
          >straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
          >permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
          >board."
          >
          >Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
          >ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
          >boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
          >wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?
          >
          >
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          >
        • Orr, Jamie
          Tim How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup, or bend longwise, or twist, or whatever? My own board is still standing in the shed, so
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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            Tim

            How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup, or bend
            longwise, or twist, or whatever?

            My own board is still standing in the shed, so I have no idea what will
            happen when it gets wet. However, with three pieces of ply laminated
            together, then covered in glass, I'm amazed it can even think about warping!

            Jamie Orr

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tim Smith [mailto:timk_smith@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:53 AM
            To: bolger@...
            Subject: [bolger] glass boards in wooden boats


            The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
            replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
            Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
            shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:

            "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
            strong,
            tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
            straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
            permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
            board."

            Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
            ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
            boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
            wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?


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          • Samson family
            I ve got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year s maintenance is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out, plane it down a
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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              I've got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year's maintenance
              is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out, plane it
              down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.

              A sticking CB certainly puts a damper on going sailing.

              Bill
            • Behrendt, Tom
              Hi all: In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                Hi all:

                In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on
                learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
                first-timer stupidity, but here's my experiences for what they are worth.
                Dagger board was built of 2 pieces of 1/4" ACX ply epoxied together and clear
                (unthickened) epoxy coated on the outside. The "glueing" epoxy was not
                thickened enough, first time it rained with the board outside the lamination
                ripped apart, both sides cupped significantly, I saw many areas on the inside
                that did not bond properly due to lack of epoxy. Where it did bond properly,
                the wood tore apart at one of the other glue lines (i.e the glue lines in the
                original plywood). Moral of the story, warping is a powerful force! As it was
                near the end of the season, and we just wanted to get the boat in the water, I
                went with a single 1/4' board, epoxy coated. Put it in the water it bends like
                a banana (lengthwise warping) in about 5 minutes. Take it out and it dries to
                more or less straight in a day or two. Put it back in...banana! As we were
                still able to get it up and down the daggerboard trunk even in it's banana
                shape and it didn't effect the boat's performance much my son and I just lived
                with it, I'll cook up something better for the next season. I think that the
                boat gets slightly more leeway when it's on the port tack, the curve - convex
                side - facing downwind, my son doesn't think so, but he's been sailing a few
                decades less than me. Either way it works "OK" for now. The rudder, on the
                other hand is made out of a single piece of 1/2" nameless scrap ply and has not
                warped at all. The strange part is that this particular piece of scrap has been
                sitting out in my yard for at least two years, I used it as a rudder
                specifically because it hadn't warped in all that time, this greyish,
                dirt-stained hunk of ply. Go figure.

                As for the "correct" way to do it, Dynamite Payson strongly reccomends using
                marine ply for boards, even if you are using "el cheapo" ply for the rest, hows
                that for backwards? Dave Carnell repeatedly writes that epoxy-coating is
                useless for waterproffing and my experiences with the coated boards seem to
                agree with that reasoning. I would assume that making a glass board involves
                using glass cloth/matt around a core of some sort, as written up by others in
                this thread. Would enough layers keep significant moisture away from a cheap
                wood core? Dunno. But, seeing as how any warping WILL crack your board, and
                given the amount of epoxy you'd be using for an expiramental wood-core board, I
                think that one would be better off going with a foam core in the first place,
                after all, that's what the surfboarders do nowadays - the old "woodie"
                longboards are laminates if I remember correctly (laminated perpendicular to
                the board surface). Does anyone have experience with topnotch marine-ply
                boards?

                Cheers!

                Tom
              • Lincoln Ross
                tim smith wrote: osnip ... I ve seen glass rudders on Hobies. Seems like you might want some wood or lots of layers on the
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                  "tim smith" <timk_smit-@...> wrote:
                  osnip
                  > "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard Isnip
                  >
                  > snipThe idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
                  > boards standard in glass boats? Osnip

                  I've seen glass rudders on Hobies. Seems like you might want some wood
                  or lots of layers on the bottom and leading edge of a board. If you
                  made a foam core board it would be very easy to hot wire a very nice
                  airfoil shape. In simplest case all you would need is two templates, a
                  homemade bow to keep the wire tight, some .020" music wire, some jumper
                  cables and two 12 V batteries or a charger and a 12V battery. If you
                  look around model airplane sights or airplane homebuilding sites I am
                  sure you will find out how to do this. Of course if you use urethane
                  you mustn't hot wire it due to toxicity.

                  One model site: www.charlesriverrc.org (that's where I'd start looking
                  if I needed this info)
                • Tim Smith
                  samson family wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2172 ... maintenance ... plane it ... Bill, that was
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                    "samson family" <bill.samso-@...> wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2172
                    > I've got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year's
                    maintenance
                    > is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out,
                    plane it
                    > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.


                    Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                    the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                  • Tim Smith
                    orr, jamie wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2167 ... or bend ... will ... warping! ... Jamie, my board was
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                      "orr, jamie" <jor-@...> wrote:
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2167
                      > Tim
                      >
                      > How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup,
                      or bend
                      > longwise, or twist, or whatever?
                      >
                      > My own board is still standing in the shed, so I have no idea what
                      will
                      > happen when it gets wet. However, with three pieces of ply laminated
                      > together, then covered in glass, I'm amazed it can even think about
                      warping!
                      >
                      > Jamie Orr
                      >
                      Jamie, my board was made by Brad Story, who I guess is said to have
                      wrangled with PCB about construction; don't know if any changes were
                      made here. Haven't gotten a close enough look to say in which planes
                      it's warped. I know it seems inconceivable--mine was planed, glassed
                      and glued just two years ago. And Bill S. has the same problem.
                    • Peter Vanderwaart
                      My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems. Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It would be heavy enought to do
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                        My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.

                        Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                        would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                        in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                        use epoxy instead of polyester.

                        The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                        the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.

                        There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                        who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                        core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                        some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                        waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                        showers could be used as a core material.

                        Peter
                      • djost
                        My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive buoyancy. This is
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                          My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
                          centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
                          buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like a pair
                          of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they grip
                          the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
                          combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
                          Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will lift
                          about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed of the
                          boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised anyway.

                          The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I think
                          that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft. I had
                          occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The mast
                          was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two boards
                          since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.

                          Peter Vanderwaart wrote:

                          > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                          >
                          > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                          > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                          > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                          > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                          >
                          > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                          > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                          >
                          > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                          > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                          > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                          > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                          > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                          > showers could be used as a core material.
                          >
                          > Peter
                          >
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                        • Peter Vanderwaart
                          Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the rubber friction
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                            Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which
                            was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the
                            rubber friction device had a couple of screws. If you tightened them
                            down, the rubber squished to the sides, increasing friction.

                            Once when the friction wasn't holding the board down properly at a
                            regatta, we tied it down. Then, when we hit a reef, the board broke at
                            the pivot pin.

                            Peter.

                            djost <djos-@...> wrote:
                            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2183
                            > My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
                            > centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
                            > buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like
                            a pair
                            > of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they
                            grip
                            > the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
                            > combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
                            > Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will
                            lift
                            > about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed
                            of the
                            > boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised
                            anyway.
                            >
                            > The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I
                            think
                            > that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft.
                            I had
                            > occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The
                            mast
                            > was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two
                            boards
                            > since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.
                            >
                            > Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
                            >
                            > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                            > >
                            > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work
                            well. It
                            > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                            convenience
                            > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                            > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                            > >
                            > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                            that
                            > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                            > >
                            > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                            > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                            aluminum
                            > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                            > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                            sort
                            > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                            under
                            > > showers could be used as a core material.
                            > >
                            > > Peter
                            > >
                          • Fraser Howell
                            My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 exterior ply enclosing 1/4 aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was formulated to stick to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                              My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 " exterior ply enclosing
                              1/4" aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was
                              formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                              the end of the first season. I then wrapped the edges in cloth and
                              epoxy, but that got stuck in the case by mid-summer. I've given up on
                              glue for the centrboard, and on trying to make the affair waterproof. I
                              riveted the whole thing with copper rivets prior to last season, and
                              have had no problems. The board is rigid, and takes the ground well, and
                              only needed about 3 lb of lead to sink properly.
                              The Chebacco rudder is welded al, and it has held up well. It has a
                              horizontal plate on the bottom, and I use it as a boarding ladder when
                              swimming.
                              Cheers;
                              Fraser Howell
                            • Robert N. Lundy
                              Oooo.... Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I m amazed at some of the original thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                Oooo....

                                Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                                thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
                                give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                                lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                                thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                first place.

                                Neat idea. Who wants to try it?

                                Robert & Amy Lundy
                                St. Petersburg, fla.
                                robert@...
                                amy@...


                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                > To: bolger@...
                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                >
                                > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                                > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                                > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                >
                                > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                                > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                >
                                > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                > showers could be used as a core material.
                                >
                                > Peter
                                >
                                >
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                              • Lincoln Ross
                                An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to get a really
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                  An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                  be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                  get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                  rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                  critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                                  thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                  prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                                  fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                  snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                  > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                  > the end of the first season.
                                  >
                                • John Bell
                                  I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he tried everything
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate
                                    sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he
                                    tried everything to get that aluminum to stick because the tips getting
                                    knocked out was the number one reason for returns. His solution to the
                                    problem was pretty simple. He would drill a number of holes in the aluminum.
                                    Then, he'd thread the holes with thick fiberglass yarn pulled off a piece of
                                    heavy glass cloth. Then he would slather the slot in the tip of the paddle
                                    with epoxy and slide the aluminum tip in. He later converted to plastic tips
                                    using this technique. I suspect it would work pretty well for making a
                                    plywood centerboard with an aluminum center, too.

                                    John Bell
                                    Kennesaw, GA
                                    jmbell@...
                                    http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
                                    To: <bolger@...>
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:32 PM
                                    Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                                    > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                    > be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                    > get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                    > rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                    > critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                                    > thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                    > prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.
                                    >
                                    > fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                    > snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                    > > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                    > > the end of the first season.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                  • Lincoln Ross
                                    The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps, but if you have a
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
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                                      The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat
                                      will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps,
                                      but if you have a little oil in there I'll bet you are still sunk.

                                      david <galvin-@...> wrote:
                                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2202
                                      > Lincoln:
                                      > The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals
                                      where
                                      > you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                                      > epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpapersnip
                                      > > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that snip
                                    • david
                                      Lincoln: The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 1, 2000
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Lincoln:
                                        The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpaper to achieve a raw surface onto which the epoxy and thus the wood, can bond. The sanding dust remains in the epoxy, where it presumably does no harm. I haven't tried this, but it seems workable on aluminum, and would save you the demanding surface prep that is usually required, as you suggest. Someone mentioned fastening the plywood to the aluminum with copper rivets, I think. In seawater I believe this would turn the board into a nice battery and rapidly devour the aluminum. You could get away with it in most fresh water environments, however,
                                        david

                                        Lincoln Ross wrote:

                                        An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                        be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                        get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                        rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                        critical. Not to even be touched with hands.  One trick was to put on
                                        thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                        prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                                        fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                        snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                        > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                        > the end of the first season.
                                        >

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                                      • Bill Samson
                                        ... A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made sure that it s not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That d have the
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >get the **$�$! board out,
                                          >plane it
                                          > > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                                          >the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                                          >
                                          >

                                          A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made
                                          sure that it's not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That'd have the
                                          same effect as a swelling board (though harder to fix). The slot should be
                                          1.5" wide all over. The board should be 1.25" thick in the middle.

                                          Have PCB&F got any views on the suitability of a steel centreplate for a
                                          Chebacco?

                                          Bill

                                          Bill

                                          Bill
                                          ______________________________________________________
                                        • Fries, John
                                          Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead in the
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of
                                            building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                                            in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                            heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be filled
                                            with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the wood/concrete
                                            interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                                            further waterproofing. Is this crazy?

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                            > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                            > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                            >
                                            > Oooo....
                                            >
                                            > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                                            > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                            > would
                                            > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                                            > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                                            > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                            > first place.
                                            >
                                            > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                            >
                                            > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                            > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                            > robert@...
                                            > amy@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                            > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                            > > To: bolger@...
                                            > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                            > >
                                            > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                                            > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                                            > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                            > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                            > >
                                            > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                                            > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                            > >
                                            > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                            > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                            > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                            > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                            > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                            > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                            > >
                                            > > Peter
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                            > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                                            > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                                            > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                          • Fries, John
                                            Yes, that s a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a distributed processing
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
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                                              Yes, that's a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds
                                              working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a 'distributed
                                              processing platform' for all of us biological computers.

                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Chuck Leinweber [SMTP:duckworks@...]
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:15 PM
                                              > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              >
                                              > John:
                                              >
                                              > IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to
                                              > odd
                                              > shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                                              > plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?
                                              >
                                              > Chuck Leinweber
                                              > Duckworks Magazine
                                              > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                                              > To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                                              > of
                                              > > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the
                                              > lead
                                              > > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                              > > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                                              > filled
                                              > > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                                              > wood/concrete
                                              > > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy
                                              > for
                                              > > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                                              > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                              > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                              > > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Oooo....
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                                              > original
                                              > > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                              > > > would
                                              > > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                                              > the
                                              > > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                                              > whole
                                              > > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in
                                              > the
                                              > > > first place.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                              > > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                              > > > robert@...
                                              > > > amy@...
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                              > > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                              > > > > To: bolger@...
                                              > > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                                              > It
                                              > > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                                              > convenience
                                              > > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                              > > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                                              > that
                                              > > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                              > > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                                              > aluminum
                                              > > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                              > > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                                              > sort
                                              > > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                                              > under
                                              > > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Peter
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                              > > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
                                              > > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/3457/_/949434489/
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                                              > > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                                              > > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                              > > > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
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                                              > > >
                                              > > > eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
                                              > > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                                              > > >
                                              > >
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                                            • Chuck Leinweber
                                              John: IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it s ability to conform to odd shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn t steel
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 2, 2000
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                John:

                                                IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to odd
                                                shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                                                plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?

                                                Chuck Leinweber
                                                Duckworks Magazine
                                                http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                                                To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                                Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                                                Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                                                > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                                                of
                                                > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                                                > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                                > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                                                filled
                                                > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                                                wood/concrete
                                                > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                                                > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                                                >
                                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                                > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                                > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                                > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                > >
                                                > > Oooo....
                                                > >
                                                > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                                                original
                                                > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                                > > would
                                                > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                                                the
                                                > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                                                whole
                                                > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                                > > first place.
                                                > >
                                                > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                                > >
                                                > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                                > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                                > > robert@...
                                                > > amy@...
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                                > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                                > > > To: bolger@...
                                                > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                                                It
                                                > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                                                convenience
                                                > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                                > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                                                that
                                                > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                                > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                                > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                                > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                                > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                                > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Peter
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                                > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
                                                > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/3457/_/949434489/
                                                > > >
                                                > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                                                > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                                > > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
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                                                > > credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
                                                > > http://click.egroups.com/1/929/5/_/3457/_/949444841/
                                                > >
                                                > > eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
                                                > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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