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[bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats

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  • Richard
    For my D4 learning experiance, I used CDX pine from Home Depot and Titebond II glue. Haven t see any warping in the water or caused by rain yet.
    Message 1 of 23 , Jan 30, 2000
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      For my D4 learning experiance, I used CDX pine from Home Depot and Titebond II glue. Haven't see any warping in the water or caused by rain yet.

      "Behrendt, Tom" wrote:

      Hi all:

      In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on
      learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
      first-timer stupidity, but here's my experiences for what they are worth.
      Dagger board was built of 2 pieces of 1/4" ACX ply epoxied together and clear
      (unthickened) epoxy coated on the outside. The "glueing" epoxy was not
      thickened enough, first time it rained with the board outside the lamination
      ripped apart, both sides cupped significantly, I saw many areas on the inside
      that did not bond properly due to lack of epoxy. Where it did bond properly,
      the wood tore apart at one of the other glue lines (i.e the glue lines in the
      original plywood). Moral of the story, warping is a powerful force! As it was
      near the end of the season, and we just wanted to get the boat in the water, I
      went with a single 1/4' board, epoxy coated. Put it in the water it bends like
      a banana (lengthwise warping) in about 5 minutes. Take it out and it dries to
      more or less straight in a day or two. Put it back in...banana! As we were
      still able to get it up and down the daggerboard trunk even in it's banana
      shape and it didn't effect the boat's performance much my son and I just lived
      with it, I'll cook up something better for the next season.  I think that the
      boat gets slightly more leeway when it's on the port tack, the curve - convex
      side - facing downwind, my son doesn't think so, but he's been sailing a few
      decades less than me. Either way it works "OK" for now. The rudder, on the
      other hand is made out of a single piece of 1/2" nameless scrap ply and has not
      warped at all. The strange part is that this particular piece of scrap has been
      sitting out in my yard for at least two years, I used it as a rudder
      specifically because it hadn't warped in all that time, this greyish,
      dirt-stained hunk of ply. Go figure.

      As for the "correct" way to do it, Dynamite Payson strongly reccomends using
      marine ply for boards, even if you are using "el cheapo" ply for the rest, hows
      that for backwards? Dave Carnell repeatedly writes that epoxy-coating is
      useless for waterproffing and my experiences with the coated boards seem to
      agree with that reasoning. I would assume that making a glass board involves
      using glass cloth/matt around a core of some sort, as written up by others in
      this thread. Would enough layers keep significant moisture away from a cheap
      wood core? Dunno. But, seeing as how any warping WILL crack your board, and
      given the amount of epoxy you'd be using for an expiramental wood-core board, I
      think that one would be better off going with a foam core in the first place,
      after all, that's what the surfboarders do nowadays - the old "woodie"
      longboards are laminates if I remember correctly (laminated perpendicular to
      the board surface). Does anyone have experience with topnotch marine-ply
      boards?

      Cheers!

      Tom

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    • Tim Smith
      The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in Yachting by Spaulding
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 1 8:53 AM
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        The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
        replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
        Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
        shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:

        "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
        strong,
        tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
        straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
        permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
        board."

        Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
        ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
        boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
        wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?
      • Fries, John
        Don t know about wheather glass boards are standard on glass boats but, if I were to build one at home, I think I would start with quarter inch ply as the
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 1 8:58 AM
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          Don't know about wheather glass boards are standard on glass boats but, if I
          were to build one at home, I think I would start with quarter inch ply as
          the core. Then apply layers of glass and epoxy to the desired thickness.
          Being totally encapsulated (really encapsulated) by several layers would
          prevent the core from warping. Alternatively, you could use some dense foam
          as the core (like a surfboard) or even a stiff piece of plastic.

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Tim Smith [SMTP:timk_smith@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:53 AM
          > To: bolger@...
          > Subject: [bolger] glass boards in wooden boats
          >
          > The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
          > replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
          > Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
          > shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:
          >
          > "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
          > strong,
          > tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
          > straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
          > permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
          > board."
          >
          > Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
          > ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
          > boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
          > wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?
          >
          >
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        • GHC
          Of course - some are solid, some are foam + glass, some are glassed wood. Gregg Carlson
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 1 8:59 AM
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            Of course - some are solid, some are foam + glass, some are glassed wood.

            Gregg Carlson

            At 08:53 AM 2/1/2000 -0800, you wrote:
            >The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
            >replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
            >Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
            >shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:
            >
            >"Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
            >strong,
            >tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
            >straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
            >permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
            >board."
            >
            >Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
            >ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
            >boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
            >wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?
            >
            >
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          • Orr, Jamie
            Tim How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup, or bend longwise, or twist, or whatever? My own board is still standing in the shed, so
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 1 9:00 AM
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              Tim

              How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup, or bend
              longwise, or twist, or whatever?

              My own board is still standing in the shed, so I have no idea what will
              happen when it gets wet. However, with three pieces of ply laminated
              together, then covered in glass, I'm amazed it can even think about warping!

              Jamie Orr

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Tim Smith [mailto:timk_smith@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:53 AM
              To: bolger@...
              Subject: [bolger] glass boards in wooden boats


              The centerboard of my Chebacco has warped--again. While thinking about
              replacing it I ran across the following, written 40 years ago in
              Yachting by Spaulding Dunbar, a naval architect who made a specialty of
              shoal-draft (wooden) cruising boats:

              "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard I know. It is
              strong,
              tough, and hard, and the worms won't eat it. Most important, it stays
              straight and will neither warp and twist like a wood board, nor take a
              permanent set and jam in the trunk, as so often happens with a metal
              board."

              Dunbar used glass boards (sometimes in tandem) in boats as big as 39
              ft. l.o.a. The idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
              boards standard in glass boats? Or was the idea tested and found
              wanting? Any thoughts about how to make one at home?


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            • Samson family
              I ve got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year s maintenance is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out, plane it down a
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 1 10:08 AM
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                I've got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year's maintenance
                is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out, plane it
                down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.

                A sticking CB certainly puts a damper on going sailing.

                Bill
              • Behrendt, Tom
                Hi all: In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 1 10:49 AM
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                  Hi all:

                  In my one finished boat, a D4 pram, made as a learning experience, emphasis on
                  learning, I did run into significant board warping, in hindsight due to
                  first-timer stupidity, but here's my experiences for what they are worth.
                  Dagger board was built of 2 pieces of 1/4" ACX ply epoxied together and clear
                  (unthickened) epoxy coated on the outside. The "glueing" epoxy was not
                  thickened enough, first time it rained with the board outside the lamination
                  ripped apart, both sides cupped significantly, I saw many areas on the inside
                  that did not bond properly due to lack of epoxy. Where it did bond properly,
                  the wood tore apart at one of the other glue lines (i.e the glue lines in the
                  original plywood). Moral of the story, warping is a powerful force! As it was
                  near the end of the season, and we just wanted to get the boat in the water, I
                  went with a single 1/4' board, epoxy coated. Put it in the water it bends like
                  a banana (lengthwise warping) in about 5 minutes. Take it out and it dries to
                  more or less straight in a day or two. Put it back in...banana! As we were
                  still able to get it up and down the daggerboard trunk even in it's banana
                  shape and it didn't effect the boat's performance much my son and I just lived
                  with it, I'll cook up something better for the next season. I think that the
                  boat gets slightly more leeway when it's on the port tack, the curve - convex
                  side - facing downwind, my son doesn't think so, but he's been sailing a few
                  decades less than me. Either way it works "OK" for now. The rudder, on the
                  other hand is made out of a single piece of 1/2" nameless scrap ply and has not
                  warped at all. The strange part is that this particular piece of scrap has been
                  sitting out in my yard for at least two years, I used it as a rudder
                  specifically because it hadn't warped in all that time, this greyish,
                  dirt-stained hunk of ply. Go figure.

                  As for the "correct" way to do it, Dynamite Payson strongly reccomends using
                  marine ply for boards, even if you are using "el cheapo" ply for the rest, hows
                  that for backwards? Dave Carnell repeatedly writes that epoxy-coating is
                  useless for waterproffing and my experiences with the coated boards seem to
                  agree with that reasoning. I would assume that making a glass board involves
                  using glass cloth/matt around a core of some sort, as written up by others in
                  this thread. Would enough layers keep significant moisture away from a cheap
                  wood core? Dunno. But, seeing as how any warping WILL crack your board, and
                  given the amount of epoxy you'd be using for an expiramental wood-core board, I
                  think that one would be better off going with a foam core in the first place,
                  after all, that's what the surfboarders do nowadays - the old "woodie"
                  longboards are laminates if I remember correctly (laminated perpendicular to
                  the board surface). Does anyone have experience with topnotch marine-ply
                  boards?

                  Cheers!

                  Tom
                • Lincoln Ross
                  tim smith wrote: osnip ... I ve seen glass rudders on Hobies. Seems like you might want some wood or lots of layers on the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 1 10:54 AM
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                    "tim smith" <timk_smit-@...> wrote:
                    osnip
                    > "Fiberglass construction makes the best centerboard Isnip
                    >
                    > snipThe idea sounds good to me, but I'm ignorant: are glass
                    > boards standard in glass boats? Osnip

                    I've seen glass rudders on Hobies. Seems like you might want some wood
                    or lots of layers on the bottom and leading edge of a board. If you
                    made a foam core board it would be very easy to hot wire a very nice
                    airfoil shape. In simplest case all you would need is two templates, a
                    homemade bow to keep the wire tight, some .020" music wire, some jumper
                    cables and two 12 V batteries or a charger and a 12V battery. If you
                    look around model airplane sights or airplane homebuilding sites I am
                    sure you will find out how to do this. Of course if you use urethane
                    you mustn't hot wire it due to toxicity.

                    One model site: www.charlesriverrc.org (that's where I'd start looking
                    if I needed this info)
                  • Tim Smith
                    samson family wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2172 ... maintenance ... plane it ... Bill, that was
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 1 11:13 AM
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                      "samson family" <bill.samso-@...> wrote:
                      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2172
                      > I've got the same problem as Tim. The major job in this year's
                      maintenance
                      > is to hoist the Chebacco high enough to get the **$£$! board out,
                      plane it
                      > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.


                      Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                      the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                    • Tim Smith
                      orr, jamie wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2167 ... or bend ... will ... warping! ... Jamie, my board was
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 1 11:23 AM
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                        "orr, jamie" <jor-@...> wrote:
                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2167
                        > Tim
                        >
                        > How is your board made? And how did it warp -- that is did it cup,
                        or bend
                        > longwise, or twist, or whatever?
                        >
                        > My own board is still standing in the shed, so I have no idea what
                        will
                        > happen when it gets wet. However, with three pieces of ply laminated
                        > together, then covered in glass, I'm amazed it can even think about
                        warping!
                        >
                        > Jamie Orr
                        >
                        Jamie, my board was made by Brad Story, who I guess is said to have
                        wrangled with PCB about construction; don't know if any changes were
                        made here. Haven't gotten a close enough look to say in which planes
                        it's warped. I know it seems inconceivable--mine was planed, glassed
                        and glued just two years ago. And Bill S. has the same problem.
                      • Peter Vanderwaart
                        My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems. Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It would be heavy enought to do
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 1 11:48 AM
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                          My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.

                          Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                          would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                          in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                          use epoxy instead of polyester.

                          The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                          the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.

                          There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                          who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                          core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                          some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                          waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                          showers could be used as a core material.

                          Peter
                        • djost
                          My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive buoyancy. This is
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 1 12:45 PM
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                            My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
                            centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
                            buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like a pair
                            of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they grip
                            the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
                            combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
                            Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will lift
                            about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed of the
                            boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised anyway.

                            The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I think
                            that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft. I had
                            occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The mast
                            was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two boards
                            since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.

                            Peter Vanderwaart wrote:

                            > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                            >
                            > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                            > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                            > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                            > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                            >
                            > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                            > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                            >
                            > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                            > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                            > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                            > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                            > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                            > showers could be used as a core material.
                            >
                            > Peter
                            >
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                          • Peter Vanderwaart
                            Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the rubber friction
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 1 1:20 PM
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                              Jack Holt used the same centerboard construction on the GP-14, which
                              was the boat my family had when I was growing up. As I remember, the
                              rubber friction device had a couple of screws. If you tightened them
                              down, the rubber squished to the sides, increasing friction.

                              Once when the friction wasn't holding the board down properly at a
                              regatta, we tied it down. Then, when we hit a reef, the board broke at
                              the pivot pin.

                              Peter.

                              djost <djos-@...> wrote:
                              original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2183
                              > My 1969 Enterprise racing dinghy, a Jack Holt design, has a wooden
                              > centerboard. It is made out of marine ply and definitely has positive
                              > buoyancy. This is offset by a grip that consists of what looks like
                              a pair
                              > of rubber hoses (perhaps old bicycle tires) screwed down so that they
                              grip
                              > the board just enough so that it does not pop back up. Upwind, the
                              > combination of leeway and the rubber grips holds the board down.
                              > Downwind, when the boat starts to come up on plane the board will
                              lift
                              > about half way up due to the lack of leeward pressure and the speed
                              of the
                              > boat. That is ok as the boat is much faster with the board raised
                              anyway.
                              >
                              > The biggest problem is that the board is susceptible to breakage. I
                              think
                              > that it is just strong enough to stand on to right a capsized craft.
                              I had
                              > occasion to do this last August in Wychmere Harbor on Cape Cod. The
                              mast
                              > was stuck in the mud and the board held me ok. I have broken two
                              boards
                              > since 1969, but I think that would be expected on a craft this old.
                              >
                              > Peter Vanderwaart wrote:
                              >
                              > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                              > >
                              > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work
                              well. It
                              > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                              convenience
                              > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                              > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                              > >
                              > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                              that
                              > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                              > >
                              > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                              > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                              aluminum
                              > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                              > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                              sort
                              > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                              under
                              > > showers could be used as a core material.
                              > >
                              > > Peter
                              > >
                            • Fraser Howell
                              My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 exterior ply enclosing 1/4 aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was formulated to stick to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 1 1:39 PM
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                                My Chebacco centreboard is a sandwich of 1/2 " exterior ply enclosing
                                1/4" aluminum. I had originally glued it with an epoxy that was
                                formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                the end of the first season. I then wrapped the edges in cloth and
                                epoxy, but that got stuck in the case by mid-summer. I've given up on
                                glue for the centrboard, and on trying to make the affair waterproof. I
                                riveted the whole thing with copper rivets prior to last season, and
                                have had no problems. The board is rigid, and takes the ground well, and
                                only needed about 3 lb of lead to sink properly.
                                The Chebacco rudder is welded al, and it has held up well. It has a
                                horizontal plate on the bottom, and I use it as a boarding ladder when
                                swimming.
                                Cheers;
                                Fraser Howell
                              • Robert N. Lundy
                                Oooo.... Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I m amazed at some of the original thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 1 2:40 PM
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                                  Oooo....

                                  Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                                  thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot would
                                  give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                                  lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                                  thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                  first place.

                                  Neat idea. Who wants to try it?

                                  Robert & Amy Lundy
                                  St. Petersburg, fla.
                                  robert@...
                                  amy@...


                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                  > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                  > To: bolger@...
                                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                  >
                                  > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                                  > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                                  > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                  > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                  >
                                  > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                                  > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                  >
                                  > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                  > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                  > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                  > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                  > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                  > showers could be used as a core material.
                                  >
                                  > Peter
                                  >
                                  >
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                                • Lincoln Ross
                                  An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to get a really
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 1 6:32 PM
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                                    An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                    be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                    get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                    rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                    critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                                    thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                    prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                                    fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                    snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                    > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                    > the end of the first season.
                                    >
                                  • John Bell
                                    I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he tried everything
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 1 7:17 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I knew a guy who built wooden kayak paddles. He used aluminum plate
                                      sandwiched in between the wooden faces to make a durable tip. He said he
                                      tried everything to get that aluminum to stick because the tips getting
                                      knocked out was the number one reason for returns. His solution to the
                                      problem was pretty simple. He would drill a number of holes in the aluminum.
                                      Then, he'd thread the holes with thick fiberglass yarn pulled off a piece of
                                      heavy glass cloth. Then he would slather the slot in the tip of the paddle
                                      with epoxy and slide the aluminum tip in. He later converted to plastic tips
                                      using this technique. I suspect it would work pretty well for making a
                                      plywood centerboard with an aluminum center, too.

                                      John Bell
                                      Kennesaw, GA
                                      jmbell@...
                                      http://jmbell.home.mindspring.com


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...>
                                      To: <bolger@...>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:32 PM
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                                      > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                      > be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                      > get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                      > rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                      > critical. Not to even be touched with hands. One trick was to put on
                                      > thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                      > prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.
                                      >
                                      > fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                      > snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                      > > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                      > > the end of the first season.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Lincoln Ross
                                      The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps, but if you have a
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 1 7:28 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        The aircraft book I have says to do both. BUt then again, your boat
                                        will still float if your board brakes. I think the epoxy layer helps,
                                        but if you have a little oil in there I'll bet you are still sunk.

                                        david <galvin-@...> wrote:
                                        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=2202
                                        > Lincoln:
                                        > The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals
                                        where
                                        > you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                                        > epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpapersnip
                                        > > An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that snip
                                      • david
                                        Lincoln: The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 1 9:56 PM
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                                          Lincoln:
                                          The Gougeon Brothers describe a technique of bonding epoxy to metals where you clean the metal up and apply a layer of epoxy, then scrub the wet epoxied surface with stainless steel wool or wet and dry sandpaper to achieve a raw surface onto which the epoxy and thus the wood, can bond. The sanding dust remains in the epoxy, where it presumably does no harm. I haven't tried this, but it seems workable on aluminum, and would save you the demanding surface prep that is usually required, as you suggest. Someone mentioned fastening the plywood to the aluminum with copper rivets, I think. In seawater I believe this would turn the board into a nice battery and rapidly devour the aluminum. You could get away with it in most fresh water environments, however,
                                          david

                                          Lincoln Ross wrote:

                                          An aircraft homebuilding book I have says that gluing to aluminum can
                                          be very difficult. All sorts of very careful surface prep required to
                                          get a really reliable joint. scrub, phosphoric acid, distilled water
                                          rinse, proper handling of cleaning rags, etc. CLeanliness absolutely
                                          critical. Not to even be touched with hands.  One trick was to put on
                                          thin layer of slow epoxy and THEN do a final scrub, as epoxy would
                                          prevent oxidation, etc. Of course you'd have to wipe the debris off.

                                          fraser.howel-@... (fraser howell) wrote:
                                          snipglued it with an epoxy that was
                                          > formulated to stick to Al, but the board had started to delaminate by
                                          > the end of the first season.
                                          >

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                                        • Bill Samson
                                          ... A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made sure that it s not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That d have the
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 2 1:51 AM
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                                            >get the **$�$! board out,
                                            >plane it
                                            > > down a bit, re-glass and epoxy it.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Bill, that was my fix the last time around. Lasted two seasons. And
                                            >the work was done by a reputable yard, not disreputable me.
                                            >
                                            >

                                            A wee bit of lateral thinking here - but have you checked the slot and made
                                            sure that it's not getting narrower (i.e. sides swelling)? That'd have the
                                            same effect as a swelling board (though harder to fix). The slot should be
                                            1.5" wide all over. The board should be 1.25" thick in the middle.

                                            Have PCB&F got any views on the suitability of a steel centreplate for a
                                            Chebacco?

                                            Bill

                                            Bill

                                            Bill
                                            ______________________________________________________
                                          • Fries, John
                                            Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead in the
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 2 6:55 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease of
                                              building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                                              in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                              heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be filled
                                              with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the wood/concrete
                                              interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                                              further waterproofing. Is this crazy?

                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                              > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                              > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              >
                                              > Oooo....
                                              >
                                              > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the original
                                              > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                              > would
                                              > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out the
                                              > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the whole
                                              > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                              > first place.
                                              >
                                              > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                              >
                                              > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                              > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                              > robert@...
                                              > amy@...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                              > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                              > > To: bolger@...
                                              > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                              > >
                                              > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well. It
                                              > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great convenience
                                              > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                              > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                              > >
                                              > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is that
                                              > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                              > >
                                              > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                              > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                              > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                              > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                              > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                              > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                              > >
                                              > > Peter
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                              > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                                              > >
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                                              >
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                                            • Fries, John
                                              Yes, that s a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a distributed processing
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 2 11:59 AM
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                                                Yes, that's a good point and another very good idea. Having all these minds
                                                working on a problem is an example of the net acting as a 'distributed
                                                processing platform' for all of us biological computers.

                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: Chuck Leinweber [SMTP:duckworks@...]
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:15 PM
                                                > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                >
                                                > John:
                                                >
                                                > IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to
                                                > odd
                                                > shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                                                > plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?
                                                >
                                                > Chuck Leinweber
                                                > Duckworks Magazine
                                                > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                                > From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                                                > To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                                                > of
                                                > > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the
                                                > lead
                                                > > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                                > > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                                                > filled
                                                > > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                                                > wood/concrete
                                                > > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy
                                                > for
                                                > > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                                                > >
                                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                                > > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                                > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Oooo....
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                                                > original
                                                > > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                                > > > would
                                                > > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                                                > the
                                                > > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                                                > whole
                                                > > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in
                                                > the
                                                > > > first place.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                                > > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                                > > > robert@...
                                                > > > amy@...
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                                > > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                                > > > > To: bolger@...
                                                > > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                                                > It
                                                > > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                                                > convenience
                                                > > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                                > > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                                                > that
                                                > > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                                > > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an
                                                > aluminum
                                                > > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                                > > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some
                                                > sort
                                                > > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or
                                                > under
                                                > > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Peter
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                > > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                                > > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
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                                                > > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                                                > > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                              • Chuck Leinweber
                                                John: IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it s ability to conform to odd shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn t steel
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 2 12:14 PM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  John:

                                                  IMHO the advantage of concrete for ballast is it's ability to conform to odd
                                                  shapes in the bilges of larger (preferably steel) boats. Wouldn't steel
                                                  plate encased in epoxy would be better than concrete in this application?

                                                  Chuck Leinweber
                                                  Duckworks Magazine
                                                  http://www.duckworksmagazine.com


                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: Fries, John <John.Fries@...>
                                                  To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 6:55 AM
                                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats


                                                  > Very interresting. A discussion a few days back about the relative ease
                                                  of
                                                  > building the Single Handed Schooner vs. Light Schooner focused on the lead
                                                  > in the centerboard. How about using concrete? I know it wouldn't be as
                                                  > heavy as the lead, but, if you coated the interior of the void to be
                                                  filled
                                                  > with epoxy first, that could address concerns about rot at the
                                                  wood/concrete
                                                  > interface. Probably would coat the outside of the concrete with epoxy for
                                                  > further waterproofing. Is this crazy?
                                                  >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: Robert N. Lundy [SMTP:robert@...]
                                                  > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 5:41 PM
                                                  > > To: bolger@egroups.com
                                                  > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Oooo....
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Every once in while (ok, pretty often) I'm amazed at some of the
                                                  original
                                                  > > thinking on this list. Using the concrete backerboard from Home Depot
                                                  > > would
                                                  > > give some heft and glass/epoxy should stick. And you could leave out
                                                  the
                                                  > > lead as the concrete might have enough negative bouancy to sink the
                                                  whole
                                                  > > thing. And this is a product that's designed to withstand water in the
                                                  > > first place.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Neat idea. Who wants to try it?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                                                  > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                                                  > > robert@...
                                                  > > amy@...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > > From: Peter Vanderwaart [mailto:pvanderw@...]
                                                  > > > Sent: February 01, 2000 2:48 PM
                                                  > > > To: bolger@...
                                                  > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: glass boards in wooden boats
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > My Stuart-built Mariner had a FG centerboard. No problems.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Given a satisfactory way to build one, an FG board should work well.
                                                  It
                                                  > > > would be heavy enought to do without lead inserts - a great
                                                  convenience
                                                  > > > in the building. If you don't have a wooden core, I see no reason to
                                                  > > > use epoxy instead of polyester.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The problem with using wood or, more especially, foam as a core is
                                                  that
                                                  > > > the board may turn out to have positive buoyancy.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > There was an article in the Catboat Bulletin some years ago by a man
                                                  > > > who made a new centerboard for his Marshall catboat using an aluminum
                                                  > > > core (which was quite flexible), covered by FG. I wonder if there is
                                                  > > > some other possibility in the stacks at Home Depot. Perhaps some sort
                                                  > > > waterproof panel material used behind tile walls in bathrooms or under
                                                  > > > showers could be used as a core material.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Peter
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0%
                                                  > > > Intro APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW!
                                                  > > > http://click.egroups.com/1/975/5/_/3457/_/949434489/
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
                                                  > > > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  > > Get what you deserve with NextCard Visa! Rates as low as 2.9%
                                                  > > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR, online balance transfers, Rewards Points,
                                                  > > no hidden fees, and much more! Get NextCard today and get the
                                                  > > credit youdeserve! Apply now! Get your NextCard Visa at:
                                                  > > http://click.egroups.com/1/929/5/_/3457/_/949444841/
                                                  > >
                                                  > > eGroups.com Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
                                                  > > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                                                  > >
                                                  >
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