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Re: [bolger] A five dollar failure

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  • Richard Spelling
    Use primer, silly. ... From: David Ryan To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:02 AM Subject: [bolger] A
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
      Use primer, silly.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:02 AM
      Subject: [bolger] A five dollar failure


      > FBBB --
      >
      > Having previously asserted "If something's worth doing, it's worth
      > doing poorly.", it looks like I'm going to have to add "If
      > something's worth doing, it's worth doing twice."
      >
      > Last week the wife and I were at the Despot, when I spotted a can of
      > grey Behr water-based porch paint on the "oops shelf." Five bucks for
      > the gallon, and the color was inoffensive. I dropped it in my cart
      > and felt smug at my thrift.
      >
      > Yesterday I spend a good two hours scuffing up the cockpits of my
      > Scooner to ready them to receive their new coat of discount paint. By
      > the time I was finished my hair looked like a powdered wig. I rinsed
      > off, then slapped on a coat of nice grey paint. Once I was done I
      > called my wife out to admire my handy work. "Quite nice," she offered
      > "the grey looks great."
      >
      > Well it didn't look great when I went out to see how it dried.
      > Apparently Behr latex porch paint wants more than a scuffing when
      > being applied over Benjamin Moore oil-based porch paint. It stuck in
      > some places, but in most places is just ran off (the boat is propped
      > on it's side) and settled in the port chine. The only saving grace is
      > it's water-based, so I just turned the hose on full blast and washed
      > it out.
      >
      > So now it looks like if I want to paint the cockpits, I'll have to
      > sand back to the white, oil-based paint at least. I'm just going to
      > tell myself I got a whole bunch of boat building for five bucks.
      >
      > YIBB,
      >
      > David
      >
      > C.E.P.
      > 415 W.46th Street
      > New York, New York 10036
      > http://www.crumblingempire.com
      > (212) 247-0296
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • David Ryan
      Well yes, that would be the obvious answer. But because I ve been using Benjamin Moore over wood and/or glass without primer and getting excellent results, I
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
        Well yes, that would be the obvious answer. But because I've been
        using Benjamin Moore over wood and/or glass without primer and
        getting excellent results, I didn't think of it.

        And...

        For the price of buying the primer and the $5/gallon "oops" paint, I
        could have just got more of Bennie's paint and skipped the priming
        altogether.

        As I said, at least it washes up with water.

        YIBB,

        David


        >Use primer, silly.
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
        >To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:02 AM
        >Subject: [bolger] A five dollar failure
        >
        >
        >> FBBB --
        >>
        >> Having previously asserted "If something's worth doing, it's worth
        >> doing poorly.", it looks like I'm going to have to add "If
        >> something's worth doing, it's worth doing twice."
        >>
        >> Last week the wife and I were at the Despot, when I spotted a can of
        >> grey Behr water-based porch paint on the "oops shelf." Five bucks for
        >> the gallon, and the color was inoffensive. I dropped it in my cart
        >> and felt smug at my thrift.
        >>
        >> Yesterday I spend a good two hours scuffing up the cockpits of my
        >> Scooner to ready them to receive their new coat of discount paint. By
        >> the time I was finished my hair looked like a powdered wig. I rinsed
        >> off, then slapped on a coat of nice grey paint. Once I was done I
        >> called my wife out to admire my handy work. "Quite nice," she offered
        >> "the grey looks great."
        >>
        >> Well it didn't look great when I went out to see how it dried.
        >> Apparently Behr latex porch paint wants more than a scuffing when
        >> being applied over Benjamin Moore oil-based porch paint. It stuck in
        >> some places, but in most places is just ran off (the boat is propped
        >> on it's side) and settled in the port chine. The only saving grace is
        >> it's water-based, so I just turned the hose on full blast and washed
        >> it out.
        >>
        >> So now it looks like if I want to paint the cockpits, I'll have to
        >> sand back to the white, oil-based paint at least. I'm just going to
        >> tell myself I got a whole bunch of boat building for five bucks.
        >>
        >> YIBB,
        >>
        >> David
        >>
        >> C.E.P.
        >> 415 W.46th Street
        >> New York, New York 10036
        >> http://www.crumblingempire.com
        >> (212) 247-0296
        >>
        >> Bolger rules!!!
        >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        >> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
        >> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
        >01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >>
        >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >Bolger rules!!!
        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
        >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
        >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        C.E.P.
        415 W.46th Street
        New York, New York 10036
        http://www.crumblingempire.com
        (212) 247-0296
      • Richard Spelling
        Sorry, feeling flippant. You are right, of course. I ve had issues with paint being washed off, even acrylic latex exterior over Behr porch paint. The local
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
          Sorry, feeling flippant.

          You are right, of course.

          I've had issues with paint being washed off, even acrylic latex exterior
          over Behr porch paint.

          The local close out store has "House Beutiful" porch paint for $2.88 a
          gallon, already colored, so you have to pick through it. However, it sticks
          to unwashed, unsanded, epoxy (as long as the epoxy is fully set). Passed the
          dishwasher test.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 12:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] A five dollar failure


          > Well yes, that would be the obvious answer. But because I've been
          > using Benjamin Moore over wood and/or glass without primer and
          > getting excellent results, I didn't think of it.
          >
          > And...
          >
          > For the price of buying the primer and the $5/gallon "oops" paint, I
          > could have just got more of Bennie's paint and skipped the priming
          > altogether.
          >
          > As I said, at least it washes up with water.
          >
          > YIBB,
          >
          > David
          >
          >
          > >Use primer, silly.
          > >----- Original Message -----
          > >From: "David Ryan" <david@...>
          > >To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:02 AM
          > >Subject: [bolger] A five dollar failure
          > >
          > >
          > >> FBBB --
          > >>
          > >> Having previously asserted "If something's worth doing, it's worth
          > >> doing poorly.", it looks like I'm going to have to add "If
          > >> something's worth doing, it's worth doing twice."
          > >>
          > >> Last week the wife and I were at the Despot, when I spotted a can of
          > >> grey Behr water-based porch paint on the "oops shelf." Five bucks for
          > >> the gallon, and the color was inoffensive. I dropped it in my cart
          > >> and felt smug at my thrift.
          > >>
          > >> Yesterday I spend a good two hours scuffing up the cockpits of my
          > >> Scooner to ready them to receive their new coat of discount paint. By
          > >> the time I was finished my hair looked like a powdered wig. I rinsed
          > >> off, then slapped on a coat of nice grey paint. Once I was done I
          > >> called my wife out to admire my handy work. "Quite nice," she offered
          > >> "the grey looks great."
          > >>
          > >> Well it didn't look great when I went out to see how it dried.
          > >> Apparently Behr latex porch paint wants more than a scuffing when
          > >> being applied over Benjamin Moore oil-based porch paint. It stuck in
          > >> some places, but in most places is just ran off (the boat is propped
          > >> on it's side) and settled in the port chine. The only saving grace is
          > >> it's water-based, so I just turned the hose on full blast and washed
          > >> it out.
          > >>
          > >> So now it looks like if I want to paint the cockpits, I'll have to
          > >> sand back to the white, oil-based paint at least. I'm just going to
          > >> tell myself I got a whole bunch of boat building for five bucks.
          > >>
          > >> YIBB,
          > >>
          > >> David
          > >>
          > >> C.E.P.
          > >> 415 W.46th Street
          > >> New York, New York 10036
          > >> http://www.crumblingempire.com
          > >> (212) 247-0296
          > >>
          > >> Bolger rules!!!
          > >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          > >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
          posts
          > >> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
          away
          > >> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          > >01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          > >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >>
          > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >Bolger rules!!!
          > >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          > >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          > >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
          > >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
          > >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          > >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          > C.E.P.
          > 415 W.46th Street
          > New York, New York 10036
          > http://www.crumblingempire.com
          > (212) 247-0296
          >
          > Bolger rules!!!
          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • rnlocnil
          The paint really RAN off? Did you wash the area with detergent of some sort first in case it was a little oily? Of course primer is a good idea, but I bet
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
            The paint really RAN off? Did you wash the area with detergent of some
            sort first in case it was a little oily? Of course primer is a good
            idea, but I bet there are latex primers that would work. None will
            stick if surface is dirty.

            ANother point, some types of latex take a long time to really dry.

            I try to test any new paint type or surface prep. I was lucky to think
            of it because the first couple of types I tried did NOT stick well. I
            can thank the list for warning me of this potential problem.
            --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
            > Well yes, that would be the obvious answer. But because I've been
            > using Benjamin Moore over wood and/or glass without primer and
            > getting excellent results, I didn't think of it.
            >
            > And...
            >
            > For the price of buying the primer and the $5/gallon "oops" paint, I
            > could have just got more of Bennie's paint and skipped the priming
            > altogether.
            >
            > As I said, at least it washes up with water.
            >
            > YIBB,
            >
            > David
            >
            snip
            > >>
            > >> Yesterday I spend a good two hours scuffing up the cockpits of
            my
            > >> Scooner to ready them to receive their new coat of discount
            paint. By
            > >> the time I was finished my hair looked like a powdered wig. I
            rinsed
            > >> off, then slapped on a coat of nice grey paint. Once I was done
            I
            > >> called my wife out to admire my handy work. "Quite nice," she
            offered
            > >> "the grey looks great."
            > >>
          • David Ryan
            Yes, it really ran off. Big puddles of paint in the chine of the boat when I went out to look at it this morning. Nope, no detergent. Just scrubbed everything
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
              Yes, it really ran off. Big puddles of paint in the chine of the boat
              when I went out to look at it this morning. Nope, no detergent. Just
              scrubbed everything with the grinder before painting, then rinses the
              dust off and let it dry before painting.

              The biggest culprits were areas that were just bare epoxy. You could
              see the paint just slid off during the night. Other area were
              marginal, while still other came out fine.

              In any event, I'm going back to oil-based urethane paint porch paint.
              Haven't had anything but good luck with that. Just give your
              epoxy/glass a good sanding and then slap it on.

              YIBB,

              David


              >The paint really RAN off? Did you wash the area with detergent of some
              >sort first in case it was a little oily? Of course primer is a good
              >idea, but I bet there are latex primers that would work. None will
              >stick if surface is dirty.
              >
              >ANother point, some types of latex take a long time to really dry.
              >
              >I try to test any new paint type or surface prep. I was lucky to think
              >of it because the first couple of types I tried did NOT stick well. I
              >can thank the list for warning me of this potential problem.
              >--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
              >> Well yes, that would be the obvious answer. But because I've been
              >> using Benjamin Moore over wood and/or glass without primer and
              >> getting excellent results, I didn't think of it.
              >>
              >> And...
              >>
              >> For the price of buying the primer and the $5/gallon "oops" paint, I
              >> could have just got more of Bennie's paint and skipped the priming
              >> altogether.
              >>
              >> As I said, at least it washes up with water.
              >>
              >> YIBB,
              >>
              >> David
              >>
              >snip
              >> >>
              >> >> Yesterday I spend a good two hours scuffing up the cockpits of
              >my
              >> >> Scooner to ready them to receive their new coat of discount
              >paint. By
              >> >> the time I was finished my hair looked like a powdered wig. I
              >rinsed
              >> >> off, then slapped on a coat of nice grey paint. Once I was done
              >I
              >> >> called my wife out to admire my handy work. "Quite nice," she
              >offered
              >> >> "the grey looks great."
              >> >>
              >
              >
              >
              >Bolger rules!!!
              >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
              >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
              >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              >- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


              C.E.P.
              415 W.46th Street
              New York, New York 10036
              http://www.crumblingempire.com
              (212) 247-0296
            • rnlocnil
              Had you used the previous places before painting with the oil based? If you managed to get oil or slime of some sort on the boat during use, I wouldn t be
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 1, 2002
                Had you used the previous places before painting with the oil based?
                If you managed to get oil or slime of some sort on the boat during
                use, I wouldn't be surprised if the oil paint doesn't stick either
                without a detergent wash of some sort. TSP works great for this but is
                not environmentally good.
                --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                > Yes, it really ran off. Big puddles of paint in the chine of the
                boat
                > when I went out to look at it this morning. Nope, no detergent. Just
                > scrubbed everything with the grinder before painting, then rinses
                the
                > dust off and let it dry before painting.
                >
                > The biggest culprits were areas that were just bare epoxy. You could
                > see the paint just slid off during the night. Other area were
                > marginal, while still other came out fine.
                >
                > In any event, I'm going back to oil-based urethane paint porch
                paint.
                > Haven't had anything but good luck with that. Just give your
                > epoxy/glass a good sanding and then slap it on.
                >
                > YIBB,
                >
                > David
                >
              • Chris Crandall
                ... I really recommend a good primer. Primers serve many useful purposes, and certainly pay for themselves in terms of looks, time, and money. I like to use
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 2, 2002
                  On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, David Ryan wrote:
                  > In any event, I'm going back to oil-based urethane paint porch paint.
                  > Haven't had anything but good luck with that. Just give your
                  > epoxy/glass a good sanding and then slap it on.

                  I really recommend a good primer. Primers serve many useful purposes, and
                  certainly pay for themselves in terms of looks, time, and money. I like to
                  use Kilz brand latex primer.

                  If you want to smooth things out a little bit, you can add crushed
                  limestone to the primer--it's not exactly a high-tech high build primer,
                  but it does work nicely. Make sure you sand it when dry.

                  The primer is more tenacious to surfaces, and provide a nice surface for
                  the next coat of paint. Failure of David's sort are substantially less
                  likely. In addition, they help build up a system that's more tolerant.
                  David has concluded that latex is a bad bet, and that oil-based is what he
                  should use. I feel that this is a hasty conclusion; the judicious use of
                  primer would've created a good finish, I'll bet.

                  Primer dries very quickly, at least latex primer does. I can put down a
                  coat, and sand in 30 minutes, ready for the next coat.

                  Finally, a good primer just doesn't cost all that much (OK, $10 gallon).
                  But it keeps you from having to put down too many extra coats of top coat.
                  The primer has aluminum oxide--an excellent cover for stains, wild grain,
                  and other visually unwelcome flaws in the wood/epoxy below. It saves
                  moeny in reducing the number of top coats.

                  The primer is more forgiving in application than top coats--it's easy to
                  slather on, compared to final top coats, which can be fussy.

                  In short, I feel that there is simply no advantage at all to skipping the
                  primer stage. It's fast, it's easy, it's cheap, and it's tenacious. On
                  every dimension it improves the final appearance of the boat, at no
                  ultimate cost to time, money, or effort.

                  I've built without primer and with it. I'll never again go back to
                  skipping the primer step.
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