Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: AS-29 Self righting??

Expand Messages
  • pvanderwaart
    ... The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much room, especially
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      > In BW's old CSD catalogue he says, "The boat...is a result of a
      > request for a home built OSTAR racer."

      The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel
      and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much
      room, especially headroom, inside.

      PHV
    • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
      This site does not work here. What s the problem? dovekiesailor On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:18:30 -0700 Mark Albanese writes: Hi,
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        This site does not work here. What's the problem? dovekiesailor

        On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:18:30 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
        writes:
        Hi, Q:

        Did you see this in the book 'Boats With An Open Mind?' All Philip Bolger
        claims is, "They
        recover from knockdowns in reassuring fashion."

        For more dreamboating see
        http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29

        Mark

        qyid wrote:
        >
        > Hello everyone, this is my first post as I just discovered this
        > wonderful design today.
        >
        > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
        > completely over, is she self righting?
        >
        > Q

        Bolger rules!!!
        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
        - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • porcupinefysh
        An interesting comparison can be made between the AS-29 and some other small boats on . The capsize screening
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          An interesting comparison can be made between the AS-29 and some other
          small boats on <http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html> . The
          capsize screening formula for the AS-29 is lower than that for the
          Pearson Triton, Allied Seabreeze and Alberg 30, three boats with
          numerous circumnavigations to their credit (BTW, none of these boats
          have interiors optimized for offshore sailing, either). Of course,
          such a low number does not necessarily a world-girdler make. Those two
          bilgeboard boxes worry me; I would like to see the same design with a
          shoal keel, a la Micro.

          I'm not sure if Bolger ever dismissed using AS-29 offshore--nothing
          I've read from him indicates that. I do understand your comments about
          the companionway ladder, although the same comfiguration seems to have
          been a non-issue for the Wises during their Atlantic crossing in Loose
          Moose 2. Could you clarify why you feel the rig is inappropriate for
          offshore use?

          porky

          --- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
          > > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
          > > completely over, is she self righting?
          >
          > Implicit in the designer's comments about this boat is that he feels
          > it is safe for coastal cruising, which pretty much means that he
          > feels she won't be damaged by strong winds. Big seas in an offshore
          > storm are another matter. Just about any boat can be rolled, and all
          > but a very few boats have a range of "upside-down stability." That
          > is, if inverted, they will stay inverted until/unless another wave
          > rolls them back right-side up. The prospects of that depend on how
          > much water gets in the hull, what happens to the rig, and other
          > imponderables.
          >
          > PCB's comments on his shoal draft designs (like the AS-29) reveal
          his
          > belief that if one of these boats is hit by a breaking wave, it will
          > slide to leeward without rolling, especially if the boards are not
          > lowered enough to trip on. I don't have the experience to evaluate
          > that proposition. Another Bolger design, Romp, is about the same
          size
          > and shape (except she has rounded corners and not boxy chines)
          > survived a hurricane. Seamanship has a big part to play, of course.
          >
          > The AS-29 is not designed as an ocean-crosser. The rig is not well
          > suited, nor are the interior accomdations. She was designed as a
          live-
          > aboard and coastal cruiser, and I think she is as safe as you could
          > expect a 30-footer to be in those roles. At least, if you don't fall
          > off the vertical, side-facing companionway latter.
          >
          > Peter
        • Mark Albanese
          Leo & Sandy, I get it fine. It s a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you? Try Tim Fatchen s Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to,
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Leo & Sandy,

            I get it fine. It's a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you?
            Try Tim Fatchen's Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to, "Incredible Bolger
            Boxes" from there.
            http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

            Leoandsandy@... wrote:
            >
            > This site does not work here. What's the problem? dovekiesailor
            > For more dreamboating see
            http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
            >
          • Mark Albanese
            ( Resent. Message swallowed? ) Peter, This sharky lookin thing is one Bolger home built OSTAR boat. Not much like AS-29.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              ( Resent. Message swallowed? )

              Peter,

              This sharky lookin' thing is one Bolger home built OSTAR boat. Not much like AS-29.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Foils%3A%20Boards%2C%20rudders%2C%20keels/Wingkeel/mfplan.jpg
              Or back up to this for more on all the modifications:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Foils%3A%20Boards%2C%20rudders%2C%20keels/

              It's more like what I think of as a blue water boat. The deep keel and high ends
              contribute much towards self righting -as opposed to knockdown recovery that may come from
              shallow ballast and high sides.
              Mark

              > pvanderwaart wrote:
              >
              > > The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel
              > > and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much
              > > room, especially headroom, inside.
              > >
              > > PHV
              > >
              > >
              > > Bolger rules!!!
              > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
              > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • seap21
              ... I haven t been keeping up much with the list lately and checked up on recent mail tonight. I noticed that one of the posts re. the as 29 being
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In bolger@y..., "qyid" <samhalperin@a...> wrote:
                > Hello everyone, this is my first post as I just discovered this
                > wonderful design today.
                >
                > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
                > completely over, is she self righting?
                >
                > Q

                I haven't been keeping up much with the list lately and checked up on
                recent mail tonight. I noticed that one of the posts re. the as 29
                being self-righting made reference to claims that the martha jane
                (original design) was self-righting. I hope that everyone knows by
                now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far
                from it. The updated design is much better in that regard. But my
                martha jane experiences make me skeptical of the as 29 as a self-
                righting boat. I'm not saying that she isn't - but I'd take nothing
                for granted.

                I really do believe that when we get into these larger sharpies that
                self-righting capablity is very realistic - ( check out the Norwalk
                Island sharpies for example) - but they must be designed to be self-
                righting. In fact - I have extremely strong feelings about this. Big
                boats should be self-righting. With what we know about design and
                ballast - and with the aid of computers there is no excuse for not
                designing a boat to be self-righting. Small boats can be righted
                easily - big ones depend upon design. It's the skipper's
                responsiblity to keep the boat on her feet - but when that doesn't
                happen - it's the designer's responsiblity to see that the boat can
                take care of herself and crew.
                Steve Anderson (Martha Jane Landroval)
              • pvanderwaart
                I have replies for three (3) messages in this thread. 1. OSTAR. Who would imagine, but Bolger has designed two different OSTAR boats, although neither
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  I have replies for three (3) messages in this thread.

                  1. OSTAR. Who would imagine, but Bolger has designed two different
                  OSTAR boats, although neither competed, as far as I know. One is a
                  Bolger Box shape with gaff cat rig and liftable keel. The other was
                  lug rig, fixed keel, multichine shape. In addition, the database has
                  a 59' OSTAR concept.

                  2. Rig for offshore. The cat yawl rig is not especially well suited
                  for offshore for several reasons, but the probably the most important
                  is that the boom is too long. In a hard chance it may drag in the
                  water and a) break, b) keep the sail from luffing, c) prevent the
                  boat from turning into the wind, or d) other. The usual rule for a
                  boom is twice the beam of the boat, but I would think the fact that
                  the boat is narrow in way of the mast would made the problem worse.
                  In the AS-29, the fact that the boom is high off the water would
                  mitigate to some extent. Other problems with the cat-yawl rig are the
                  heavy weight of the mast in the bow, lack of working room around the
                  mast, windage of the mast in the bow which might reduce your options
                  in a survival situation.

                  3. Self-righting. The AS-29 is different from the Martha Jane in
                  several respects. The ballast displacement ratio is higher, and the
                  deck arrangement prevents flooding.

                  Peter
                • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                  Thanks, Mark, but it s a no-go. I ll check with a local teenage guru. I ve tried everything. Leo On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:28:54 -0700 Mark Albanese
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                    I've tried everything. Leo

                    On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:28:54 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
                    writes:
                    Leo & Sandy,

                    I get it fine. It's a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you?
                    Try Tim Fatchen's Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to,
                    "Incredible Bolger
                    Boxes" from there.
                    http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                    Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                    >
                    > This site does not work here. What's the problem?
                    dovekiesailor
                    > For more dreamboating see
                    http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                    >

                    Bolger rules!!!
                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                    - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                    - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                    01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mark Albanese
                    Leo, That s pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several MJ s featured, including Mike Stockstill s Rambunctious, showing the high house
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Leo,

                      That's pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several MJ's featured,
                      including Mike Stockstill's Rambunctious, showing the high house and sponsons. Come to
                      think of it, in the meantime see
                      http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/index.htm
                      and
                      http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html

                      BTW that MAIB back issue may be available for $2 directly from
                      Bob Hicks, Editor
                      MAIB
                      29 Burley St.
                      Wenham, MA 01984-1943
                      (978) 774-0906

                      If you like, send me your mailing address and I'll fair use copy it to you.

                      Mark







                      Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                      > I've tried everything. Leo
                      >
                      > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                      > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                      > >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                      > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                      Mark- thanks for the links. My computer problem was AOL based; using Internet Explorer solved the problem. I m still trying to gather hard data,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 1, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mark- thanks for the links. My computer problem was AOL based; using
                        Internet Explorer solved the problem. I'm still trying to gather hard
                        data, facts, specifics about the "problem" with the MJ.

                        On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:38:07 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
                        writes:
                        Leo,

                        That's pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several
                        MJ's featured,
                        including Mike Stockstill's Rambunctious, showing the high house and
                        sponsons. Come to
                        think of it, in the meantime see
                        http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/index.htm
                        and
                        http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html

                        BTW that MAIB back issue may be available for $2 directly from
                        Bob Hicks, Editor
                        MAIB
                        29 Burley St.
                        Wenham, MA 01984-1943
                        (978) 774-0906

                        If you like, send me your mailing address and I'll fair use copy it to
                        you.

                        Mark







                        Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                        > I've tried everything. Leo
                        >
                        > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                        > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                        > >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
                        away
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
                        away
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                        Bolger rules!!!
                        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                        - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                        Steve- you wrote: I hope that everyone knows by now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far from it. The updated design is much
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 2, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve- you wrote:
                          "I hope that everyone knows by
                          now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far
                          from it. The updated design is much better in that regard. But my
                          martha jane experiences make me skeptical of the as 29 as a self-
                          righting boat. I'm not saying that she isn't - but I'd take nothing
                          for granted."
                          My question is,are any details or facts available?
                          Leoandsandy@...

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                          We saw the well-traveled MJ Steadfast at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival last year, and talked a bit with her owner/builder Bennett Scheurer. Somebody
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 3, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            We saw the well-traveled MJ Steadfast at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat
                            Festival last year, and talked a bit with her owner/builder Bennett
                            Scheurer. Somebody asked about the "problem" and Bennett pretty much said
                            there is none. He knows the people who suffered the knockdown, which indeed
                            was a scary experience, but he thinks they put too much blame on the boat.
                            IIRC, the knockdown occurred in quite shallow water and the mainmast got
                            stuck in the sand, if that hadn't happened the boat might well have righted
                            herself. Of course Bennett isn't unbiased, he's put, IIRC, 20 some-odd
                            thousand miles on his MJ (mostly on the trailer <g>). The knockdown was
                            discussed on this list, shortly after it happened, but I don't know what the
                            subject line was, and there have been a _lot_ of MJ threads over the
                            years... Some photos of Steadfast can be seen near the top of this page (boy
                            those MJs sure are homely! <g>):

                            http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/

                            On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:35:21 -0400, Leo wrote:
                            > ...
                            > I'm still trying to gather hard
                            > data, facts, specifics about the "problem" with the MJ.

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell by
                            Dickens without laughing. <Oscar Wilde>
                          • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                            Very interesting stuff. Thanks. Leo ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 3, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Very interesting stuff. Thanks. Leo

                              ________________________________________________________________
                              GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
                              Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
                              Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
                              http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.