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Re: AS-29 Self righting??

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  • Mark Albanese
    In BW s old CSD catalogue he says, The boat...is a result of a request for a home built OSTAR racer. This does not mean that boat is identical with AS-29. An
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
      In BW's old CSD catalogue he says, "The boat...is a result of a request for a home built
      OSTAR racer." This does not mean that boat is identical with AS-29. An inveterate
      promoter, BW also repeated Mike O'Brian's notion that the original Martha Jane is, "Self righting."


      Mark

      proaconstrictor wrote:
      > I thought someone built one for the OSTAR, or that was discussed. Or
      > was that maybe Loose Moose.
      >
    • pvanderwaart
      ... The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much room, especially
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
        > In BW's old CSD catalogue he says, "The boat...is a result of a
        > request for a home built OSTAR racer."

        The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel
        and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much
        room, especially headroom, inside.

        PHV
      • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
        This site does not work here. What s the problem? dovekiesailor On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:18:30 -0700 Mark Albanese writes: Hi,
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
          This site does not work here. What's the problem? dovekiesailor

          On Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:18:30 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
          writes:
          Hi, Q:

          Did you see this in the book 'Boats With An Open Mind?' All Philip Bolger
          claims is, "They
          recover from knockdowns in reassuring fashion."

          For more dreamboating see
          http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29

          Mark

          qyid wrote:
          >
          > Hello everyone, this is my first post as I just discovered this
          > wonderful design today.
          >
          > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
          > completely over, is she self righting?
          >
          > Q

          Bolger rules!!!
          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
          - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • porcupinefysh
          An interesting comparison can be made between the AS-29 and some other small boats on . The capsize screening
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
            An interesting comparison can be made between the AS-29 and some other
            small boats on <http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html> . The
            capsize screening formula for the AS-29 is lower than that for the
            Pearson Triton, Allied Seabreeze and Alberg 30, three boats with
            numerous circumnavigations to their credit (BTW, none of these boats
            have interiors optimized for offshore sailing, either). Of course,
            such a low number does not necessarily a world-girdler make. Those two
            bilgeboard boxes worry me; I would like to see the same design with a
            shoal keel, a la Micro.

            I'm not sure if Bolger ever dismissed using AS-29 offshore--nothing
            I've read from him indicates that. I do understand your comments about
            the companionway ladder, although the same comfiguration seems to have
            been a non-issue for the Wises during their Atlantic crossing in Loose
            Moose 2. Could you clarify why you feel the rig is inappropriate for
            offshore use?

            porky

            --- In bolger@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote:
            > > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
            > > completely over, is she self righting?
            >
            > Implicit in the designer's comments about this boat is that he feels
            > it is safe for coastal cruising, which pretty much means that he
            > feels she won't be damaged by strong winds. Big seas in an offshore
            > storm are another matter. Just about any boat can be rolled, and all
            > but a very few boats have a range of "upside-down stability." That
            > is, if inverted, they will stay inverted until/unless another wave
            > rolls them back right-side up. The prospects of that depend on how
            > much water gets in the hull, what happens to the rig, and other
            > imponderables.
            >
            > PCB's comments on his shoal draft designs (like the AS-29) reveal
            his
            > belief that if one of these boats is hit by a breaking wave, it will
            > slide to leeward without rolling, especially if the boards are not
            > lowered enough to trip on. I don't have the experience to evaluate
            > that proposition. Another Bolger design, Romp, is about the same
            size
            > and shape (except she has rounded corners and not boxy chines)
            > survived a hurricane. Seamanship has a big part to play, of course.
            >
            > The AS-29 is not designed as an ocean-crosser. The rig is not well
            > suited, nor are the interior accomdations. She was designed as a
            live-
            > aboard and coastal cruiser, and I think she is as safe as you could
            > expect a 30-footer to be in those roles. At least, if you don't fall
            > off the vertical, side-facing companionway latter.
            >
            > Peter
          • Mark Albanese
            Leo & Sandy, I get it fine. It s a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you? Try Tim Fatchen s Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to,
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
              Leo & Sandy,

              I get it fine. It's a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you?
              Try Tim Fatchen's Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to, "Incredible Bolger
              Boxes" from there.
              http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

              Leoandsandy@... wrote:
              >
              > This site does not work here. What's the problem? dovekiesailor
              > For more dreamboating see
              http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
              >
            • Mark Albanese
              ( Resent. Message swallowed? ) Peter, This sharky lookin thing is one Bolger home built OSTAR boat. Not much like AS-29.
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
                ( Resent. Message swallowed? )

                Peter,

                This sharky lookin' thing is one Bolger home built OSTAR boat. Not much like AS-29.
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Foils%3A%20Boards%2C%20rudders%2C%20keels/Wingkeel/mfplan.jpg
                Or back up to this for more on all the modifications:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Foils%3A%20Boards%2C%20rudders%2C%20keels/

                It's more like what I think of as a blue water boat. The deep keel and high ends
                contribute much towards self righting -as opposed to knockdown recovery that may come from
                shallow ballast and high sides.
                Mark

                > pvanderwaart wrote:
                >
                > > The OSTAR design is a different boat. It has a deep heavy fin keel
                > > and a gaff cat rig. The freeboard is much lower so there is not much
                > > room, especially headroom, inside.
                > >
                > > PHV
                > >
                > >
                > > Bolger rules!!!
                > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • seap21
                ... I haven t been keeping up much with the list lately and checked up on recent mail tonight. I noticed that one of the posts re. the as 29 being
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 29, 2002
                  --- In bolger@y..., "qyid" <samhalperin@a...> wrote:
                  > Hello everyone, this is my first post as I just discovered this
                  > wonderful design today.
                  >
                  > My question is: If the AS-29 were knocked down or even rolled
                  > completely over, is she self righting?
                  >
                  > Q

                  I haven't been keeping up much with the list lately and checked up on
                  recent mail tonight. I noticed that one of the posts re. the as 29
                  being self-righting made reference to claims that the martha jane
                  (original design) was self-righting. I hope that everyone knows by
                  now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far
                  from it. The updated design is much better in that regard. But my
                  martha jane experiences make me skeptical of the as 29 as a self-
                  righting boat. I'm not saying that she isn't - but I'd take nothing
                  for granted.

                  I really do believe that when we get into these larger sharpies that
                  self-righting capablity is very realistic - ( check out the Norwalk
                  Island sharpies for example) - but they must be designed to be self-
                  righting. In fact - I have extremely strong feelings about this. Big
                  boats should be self-righting. With what we know about design and
                  ballast - and with the aid of computers there is no excuse for not
                  designing a boat to be self-righting. Small boats can be righted
                  easily - big ones depend upon design. It's the skipper's
                  responsiblity to keep the boat on her feet - but when that doesn't
                  happen - it's the designer's responsiblity to see that the boat can
                  take care of herself and crew.
                  Steve Anderson (Martha Jane Landroval)
                • pvanderwaart
                  I have replies for three (3) messages in this thread. 1. OSTAR. Who would imagine, but Bolger has designed two different OSTAR boats, although neither
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                    I have replies for three (3) messages in this thread.

                    1. OSTAR. Who would imagine, but Bolger has designed two different
                    OSTAR boats, although neither competed, as far as I know. One is a
                    Bolger Box shape with gaff cat rig and liftable keel. The other was
                    lug rig, fixed keel, multichine shape. In addition, the database has
                    a 59' OSTAR concept.

                    2. Rig for offshore. The cat yawl rig is not especially well suited
                    for offshore for several reasons, but the probably the most important
                    is that the boom is too long. In a hard chance it may drag in the
                    water and a) break, b) keep the sail from luffing, c) prevent the
                    boat from turning into the wind, or d) other. The usual rule for a
                    boom is twice the beam of the boat, but I would think the fact that
                    the boat is narrow in way of the mast would made the problem worse.
                    In the AS-29, the fact that the boom is high off the water would
                    mitigate to some extent. Other problems with the cat-yawl rig are the
                    heavy weight of the mast in the bow, lack of working room around the
                    mast, windage of the mast in the bow which might reduce your options
                    in a survival situation.

                    3. Self-righting. The AS-29 is different from the Martha Jane in
                    several respects. The ballast displacement ratio is higher, and the
                    deck arrangement prevents flooding.

                    Peter
                  • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                    Thanks, Mark, but it s a no-go. I ll check with a local teenage guru. I ve tried everything. Leo On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:28:54 -0700 Mark Albanese
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                      Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                      I've tried everything. Leo

                      On Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:28:54 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
                      writes:
                      Leo & Sandy,

                      I get it fine. It's a short URL, but could it be wrapping for you?
                      Try Tim Fatchen's Square Boats Home Page and see if you can tack to,
                      "Incredible Bolger
                      Boxes" from there.
                      http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                      Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                      >
                      > This site does not work here. What's the problem?
                      dovekiesailor
                      > For more dreamboating see
                      http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                      >

                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                      - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mark Albanese
                      Leo, That s pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several MJ s featured, including Mike Stockstill s Rambunctious, showing the high house
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 30, 2002
                        Leo,

                        That's pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several MJ's featured,
                        including Mike Stockstill's Rambunctious, showing the high house and sponsons. Come to
                        think of it, in the meantime see
                        http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/index.htm
                        and
                        http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html

                        BTW that MAIB back issue may be available for $2 directly from
                        Bob Hicks, Editor
                        MAIB
                        29 Burley St.
                        Wenham, MA 01984-1943
                        (978) 774-0906

                        If you like, send me your mailing address and I'll fair use copy it to you.

                        Mark







                        Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                        > I've tried everything. Leo
                        >
                        > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                        > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                        > >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                        Mark- thanks for the links. My computer problem was AOL based; using Internet Explorer solved the problem. I m still trying to gather hard data,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 1, 2002
                          Mark- thanks for the links. My computer problem was AOL based; using
                          Internet Explorer solved the problem. I'm still trying to gather hard
                          data, facts, specifics about the "problem" with the MJ.

                          On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:38:07 -0700 Mark Albanese <marka@...>
                          writes:
                          Leo,

                          That's pretty baffling. I hope your teenager can help. There are several
                          MJ's featured,
                          including Mike Stockstill's Rambunctious, showing the high house and
                          sponsons. Come to
                          think of it, in the meantime see
                          http://mkstocks.tripod.com/boats/martha_jane/index.htm
                          and
                          http://www.geocities.com/seap21/marthajane.html

                          BTW that MAIB back issue may be available for $2 directly from
                          Bob Hicks, Editor
                          MAIB
                          29 Burley St.
                          Wenham, MA 01984-1943
                          (978) 774-0906

                          If you like, send me your mailing address and I'll fair use copy it to
                          you.

                          Mark







                          Leoandsandy@... wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks, Mark, but it's a no-go. I'll check with a local teenage guru.
                          > I've tried everything. Leo
                          >
                          > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/sbhome.htm#menu

                          > http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/as192939.htm#as29
                          > >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
                          away
                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip>
                          away
                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                          Bolger rules!!!
                          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                          - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
                          - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                          Steve- you wrote: I hope that everyone knows by now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far from it. The updated design is much
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 2, 2002
                            Steve- you wrote:
                            "I hope that everyone knows by
                            now that the original design was/is not self-righting. She was far
                            from it. The updated design is much better in that regard. But my
                            martha jane experiences make me skeptical of the as 29 as a self-
                            righting boat. I'm not saying that she isn't - but I'd take nothing
                            for granted."
                            My question is,are any details or facts available?
                            Leoandsandy@...

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                            We saw the well-traveled MJ Steadfast at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival last year, and talked a bit with her owner/builder Bennett Scheurer. Somebody
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 3, 2002
                              We saw the well-traveled MJ Steadfast at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat
                              Festival last year, and talked a bit with her owner/builder Bennett
                              Scheurer. Somebody asked about the "problem" and Bennett pretty much said
                              there is none. He knows the people who suffered the knockdown, which indeed
                              was a scary experience, but he thinks they put too much blame on the boat.
                              IIRC, the knockdown occurred in quite shallow water and the mainmast got
                              stuck in the sand, if that hadn't happened the boat might well have righted
                              herself. Of course Bennett isn't unbiased, he's put, IIRC, 20 some-odd
                              thousand miles on his MJ (mostly on the trailer <g>). The knockdown was
                              discussed on this list, shortly after it happened, but I don't know what the
                              subject line was, and there have been a _lot_ of MJ threads over the
                              years... Some photos of Steadfast can be seen near the top of this page (boy
                              those MJs sure are homely! <g>):

                              http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/

                              On Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:35:21 -0400, Leo wrote:
                              > ...
                              > I'm still trying to gather hard
                              > data, facts, specifics about the "problem" with the MJ.

                              --
                              John <jkohnen@...>
                              http://www.boat-links.com/
                              One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell by
                              Dickens without laughing. <Oscar Wilde>
                            • Leoandsandy@Juno.com
                              Very interesting stuff. Thanks. Leo ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 3, 2002
                                Very interesting stuff. Thanks. Leo

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