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Micro Keel fasteners

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  • Derek Waters
    Hi Group Micro s plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the keel lead. I d been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but after
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27, 2002
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      Hi Group

      Micro's plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the
      keel lead. I'd been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but
      after a little experimentation I'm leaning towards stainless.
      The bronze screws need a tapered pilot hole, or several different diameter
      holes, where I can get stainless with parallel shanks. Driving bendy bronze
      nails into lead is proving to be an unhappy experience.

      My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in the
      table....

      Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?

      Cheers
      Derek
    • dnjost
      I got a small drill, and using a slow speed on the drill made pilot holes for the ring nails. The process went relatively smoothly after I realized the bits
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 27, 2002
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        I got a small drill, and using a slow speed on the drill made pilot
        holes for the ring nails. The process went relatively smoothly after
        I realized the bits were sticking due to the speed melting the lead.
        This was relatively easy to do.

        I don't think that stainless is a great underwater metal. In order
        for stainless to remain so, it needs to be exposed to the air. I had
        a keel/centerboard boat that had problems with stainless screws
        disappearing from the pad eyes that were underwater. I suspect that
        this kind of corrosion was the culprit. Not all stainless is the
        same equal. Be careful.

        David Jost

        >
        > My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in
        the
        > table....
        >
        > Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?
        >
        > Cheers
        > Derek
      • Chuck Leinweber
        Derek: Have you tried drilling pilot holes for the nails? I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I have done it before. Lead is hard to drill - try drilling
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 27, 2002
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          Derek:

          Have you tried drilling pilot holes for the nails? I know it sounds counterintuitive, but I have done it before. Lead is hard to drill - try drilling slowly, and using some kind of cutting fluid like WD-40. I would try drilling about .020 smaller than the nail.

          Chuck
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Derek Waters
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 4:31 PM
          Subject: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners


          Hi Group

          Micro's plan shows a lot of fasteners through the ply sheathing into the
          keel lead. I'd been planning on using bronze ring-nails and screws, but
          after a little experimentation I'm leaning towards stainless.
          The bronze screws need a tapered pilot hole, or several different diameter
          holes, where I can get stainless with parallel shanks. Driving bendy bronze
          nails into lead is proving to be an unhappy experience.

          My main concern about SS is corrosion - bronze is a lot closer in the
          table....

          Any suggestions? experiences? hints and tips?

          Cheers
          Derek


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        • Derek Waters
          Chuck, David, Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead dry is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 28, 2002
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            Chuck, David,

            Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead
            'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with cutting
            fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed something?
            Is there a simpler way?

            Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then clamping on the
            ply sheathing.
            Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener location.
            Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning afterwards.
            Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
            Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
            Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
            Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now ticking :)
            Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
            Pound home fasteners.
            Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead quite as
            liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....

            I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?

            Cheers
            Derek
          • roue20ca
            You might consider also marking the drill bit with tape so you don t drill past the max depth of the nail. If the nail only has a fraction of a inch to go you
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 28, 2002
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              You might consider also marking the drill bit with tape so you don't
              drill past the max depth of the nail. If the nail only has a fraction
              of a inch to go you should be able to drive it in. The plus of this
              is the nail will be firmly supported all around and not eventually
              work loose. I suspect lead would act similar to some soft woods but
              dont forget it will not shrink and expand with moisture so the nail
              must be snug in its hole.

              Andy Moore
              Nova Scotia
              Canada
            • dnjost
              If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would do one of two things. 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold the
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 28, 2002
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                If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would do
                one of two things.

                1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
                the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
                each side to be glued and nailed in place.

                2. turn the boat upside down. Let gravity hold that monster still
                while I put the sheathing on one side at a time.

                I did this the hard way, Upside down, under the boat. I nailed
                vertical posts to the keel batten and down to the cradle. Positioned
                the lead, then removed the vertical posts as necessary while I nailed
                and glued the sheathing on. It is not quite as straight as it should
                be, and my left arm still hurts from where the keel fell on it.

                A good sharp drill run at a slow speed with a little cutting oil on
                it should work. Get the slow hardener.

                David Jost



                firmly supported all around and not eventually
                > work loose. I suspect lead would act similar to some soft woods but
                > dont forget it will not shrink and expand with moisture so the nail
                > must be snug in its hole.
                >
                > Andy Moore
                > Nova Scotia
                > Canada
              • roue20ca
                ... Yep; I was wondering about that but I thought perhaps there was a design reason the boat could not be built this way. ... I understand but remember you
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                  --- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
                  > If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would do
                  > one of two things.
                  >
                  > 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
                  > the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
                  > each side to be glued and nailed in place.

                  Yep; I was wondering about that but I thought perhaps there was a
                  design reason the boat could not be built this way.

                  >
                  > 2. turn the boat upside down. Let gravity hold that monster still
                  > while I put the sheathing on one side at a time.

                  I understand but remember you have to turn her upside right after
                  ward.


                  > I did this the hard way, Upside down, under the boat. I nailed
                  > vertical posts to the keel batten and down to the cradle.
                  > Positioned the lead, then removed the vertical posts as necessary
                  > while I nailed and glued the sheathing on. It is not quite as
                  > straight as it should be, and my left arm still hurts from where the
                  > keel fell on it.
                  >
                  > A good sharp drill run at a slow speed with a little cutting oil on
                  > it should work. Get the slow hardener.

                  Certainly slowing the curing process would have reduced the rush and
                  it also improoves the quality of the finished product. I believe slow
                  curing makes a less brittle finished product. You can have dropping
                  cloth and runs sometimes if it is to wetted out.

                  > David Jost


                  Pros and Cons to everything. Talk to you later.
                  Keep us uptodate.

                  Andy Moore
                  Nova Scotia
                  Canada
                • ellengaestboatbuildingcom
                  David, If you use your first option,you might also want to simply go with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty business of attaching
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                    David,
                    If you use your first option,you might also want to simply go
                    with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty
                    business of attaching the plywood panels which later may begin to rot
                    when their bottom edges become gouged by bottom contact thus exposing
                    the bare edge.
                    I have the paper pattern for my keel shape(lead ballast only)
                    that I would be willing to"lend" to any other MICRO builder wishing to
                    go a more traditional route with the MICRO keel.
                    Keel assembly can be seen over on DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE under the
                    articles section(archives)..........
                    Continued success with FIREFLY!!!
                    Peter Lenihan






                    --- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
                    > If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would
                    do
                    > one of two things.
                    >
                    > 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would hold
                    > the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to get
                    > each side to be glued and nailed in place.
                    >
                  • Chuck Leinweber
                    Derek I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill the wood first,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                      Derek

                      I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or a dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead slowly. You may need to repeat the application of oil once or twice for each hole. This all assumes that you are going to sheath the keel with fiberglass. I don't think the tiny amount of oil that you would get on the wood would be a problem.

                      Chuck
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Derek Waters
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:19 PM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners


                      Chuck, David,

                      Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling the lead
                      'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with cutting
                      fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed something?
                      Is there a simpler way?

                      Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then clamping on the
                      ply sheathing.
                      Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener location.
                      Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning afterwards.
                      Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
                      Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
                      Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
                      Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now ticking :)
                      Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
                      Pound home fasteners.
                      Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead quite as
                      liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....

                      I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?

                      Cheers
                      Derek


                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      ADVERTISEMENT




                      Bolger rules!!!
                      - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                      - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                      - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                      - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sctree
                      Anti-freeze/coolant makes a good lube for drilling lead, and some here say any the plywood absorbed would be anti-fungal for the plywood. Usual warning to keep
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                        Anti-freeze/coolant makes a good lube for drilling lead, and some
                        here
                        say any the plywood absorbed would be anti-fungal for the plywood.

                        Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
                        antifreeze/coolant ...

                        Rick


                        You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill
                        the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or
                        a
                        dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would
                        work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead
                        slowly.
                      • David Ryan
                        ... A friend of mine is doing quite a bit of reading about the Red Army during WWII. Apparently when the Russians would overrun a German supply depot it was
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                          >Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
                          >antifreeze/coolant ...

                          A friend of mine is doing quite a bit of reading about the Red Army
                          during WWII. Apparently when the Russians would overrun a German
                          supply depot it was imperative that an officer secure any antifreeze
                          caches before the men could find it and drink it. Apparently aside
                          from being sweet, it will give you a help of a buzz (before it kills
                          you.)

                          YIBB,

                          David

                          C.E.P.
                          134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
                          New York, New York 10001
                          http://www.crumblingempire.com
                          (212) 247-0296
                        • rlspell2000
                          The cutting fluid is really a coolant in this case. Use a small stream of water to cool the lead. Keep the speed down, and the water flow small, and you
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                            The "cutting fluid" is really a coolant in this case. Use a small
                            stream of water to cool the lead. Keep the speed down, and the water
                            flow small, and you shouldn't have any problems. Use a phenmatic
                            drill if you have one, otherwise be careful with electricity and
                            water.

                            You could probably get away with just dipping you bit in water every
                            few seconds.

                            The water will dry up and you won't have to clean oil off the wood.

                            Drill the holes with the assembly clamped in place, through both the
                            wood and the lead. ONLY way to get them to line up.

                            (Course, if I was pouring a lead keel, I'd have cast the bolts into
                            the lead...)

                            --- In bolger@y..., "Chuck Leinweber" <chuck@d...> wrote:
                            > Derek
                            >
                            > I guess my inclination would be to put the thing together, then
                            drill the holes. You do not have to use a flow of cutting oil: Drill
                            the wood first, then withdraw the bit and give it a mist of WD-40 or
                            a dab of your favorite cutting oil (kerosene or paint thinner would
                            work), then shake off any excess, and proceed to drill the lead
                            slowly. You may need to repeat the application of oil once or twice
                            for each hole. This all assumes that you are going to sheath the
                            keel with fiberglass. I don't think the tiny amount of oil that you
                            would get on the wood would be a problem.
                            >
                            > Chuck
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Derek Waters
                            > To: bolger@y...
                            > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 4:19 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Micro Keel fasteners
                            >
                            >
                            > Chuck, David,
                            >
                            > Thanks for the responses. As you would expect, I found drilling
                            the lead
                            > 'dry' is tough; the lead heats up and grabs bits. If I drill with
                            cutting
                            > fluid, it seems I would have to do as follows - or have I missed
                            something?
                            > Is there a simpler way?
                            >
                            > Start with a complete dry fit , positioning the lead, then
                            clamping on the
                            > ply sheathing.
                            > Drill through the ply (dry) thus marking the lead for fastener
                            location.
                            > Remove the ply, carefully marking it for exact repositioning
                            afterwards.
                            > Finish drilling the pilot holes into the lead (this time 'wet').
                            > Remove the lead, having carefully marked for position.
                            > Carefully clean off all traces of cutting fluid.
                            > Butter with epoxy and reposition lead. (Epoxy clock is now
                            ticking :)
                            > Reassemble epoxied ply sheathing, checking alignment.
                            > Pound home fasteners.
                            > Repeat for other side of keel, without being able to wash lead
                            quite as
                            > liberally, since it will now be partially attached to the hull....
                            >
                            > I guess it's not that bad. How about it. Is there a simpler way?
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > Derek
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > ADVERTISEMENT
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Bolger rules!!!
                            > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                            > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                            > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
                            like
                            > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                            Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                            > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            Service.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jeff Blunck
                            Older anti-freeze was alcohol based! Like wood grain alcohol, not very compatible with the body. I m not sure when glycerin base showed up but there was a
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                              Older anti-freeze was alcohol based! Like wood grain alcohol, not very compatible with the body.

                              I'm not sure when glycerin base showed up but there was a slow change over as the early glycerin based anti-freeze would not cool well and get thick in extreme cold. I would bet they where talking about the alcohol based stuff.

                              Either way, it'll kill you.


                              Jeff
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: David Ryan
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 9:24 AM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Micro Keel fasteners



                              >Usual warning to keep the dogs (and kids) away from the liquid
                              >antifreeze/coolant ...

                              A friend of mine is doing quite a bit of reading about the Red Army
                              during WWII. Apparently when the Russians would overrun a German
                              supply depot it was imperative that an officer secure any antifreeze
                              caches before the men could find it and drink it. Apparently aside
                              from being sweet, it will give you a help of a buzz (before it kills
                              you.)

                              YIBB,

                              David

                              C.E.P.
                              134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
                              New York, New York 10001
                              http://www.crumblingempire.com
                              (212) 247-0296

                              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              ADVERTISEMENT




                              Bolger rules!!!
                              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                              - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                              - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                              - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • dnjost
                              Right, How could I forget Peter s well built Micro. The deadwood idea is best. I have encapsulated my Micros keel bottom with 2 layers or cloth tape set in
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 1, 2002
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                                Right, How could I forget Peter's well built Micro. The deadwood
                                idea is best. I have encapsulated my Micros keel bottom with 2
                                layers or cloth tape set in epoxy and coated the whole mess with a
                                layer of 60 oz cloth. May the marine critters try to eat that mess.

                                david jost

                                > If you use your first option,you might also want to simply go
                                > with solid deadwood fore and aft thereby doing away with the nasty
                                > business of attaching the plywood panels which later may begin to
                                rot
                                > when their bottom edges become gouged by bottom contact thus
                                exposing
                                > the bare edge.
                                > I have the paper pattern for my keel shape(lead ballast only)
                                > that I would be willing to"lend" to any other MICRO builder wishing
                                to
                                > go a more traditional route with the MICRO keel.
                                > Keel assembly can be seen over on DUCKWORKS MAGAZINE under the
                                > articles section(archives)..........
                                > Continued success with FIREFLY!!!
                                > Peter Lenihan
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
                                > > If I were to do this again. Trust me, the answer is no. I would
                                > do
                                > > one of two things.
                                > >
                                > > 1. cast my keel with bronze keel bolts imbedded. That would
                                hold
                                > > the sucker in place while I could take all the time I wanted to
                                get
                                > > each side to be glued and nailed in place.
                                > >
                              • watsongs
                                Hey folks - I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about epoxy, but 3M
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 2, 2002
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                                  Hey folks -

                                  I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
                                  task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
                                  epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
                                  thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
                                  cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
                                  the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
                                  on that method?

                                  Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?

                                  Greg
                                • Chuck Leinweber
                                  Gregg: I m with you: 3M 5200 sticks to anything and everything. Frankly I m not too impressed with the way boat building epoxy sticks to metal. Chuck Hey
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 2, 2002
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                                    Gregg:

                                    I'm with you: 3M 5200 sticks to anything and everything. Frankly I'm not too impressed with the way boat building epoxy sticks to metal.

                                    Chuck
                                    Hey folks -

                                    I just took delivery of a partially completed micro hull, and the
                                    task of the keel looms large in my future. Everyone talks about
                                    epoxy, but 3M 5200 sticks to my tools better than anything else. Any
                                    thoughts on the idea? Longer working time, probably a third of the
                                    cost, and no worries about cracking if you anchor the wrong way (by
                                    the keel). I'm planning to use my car jack to get it in, any caveats
                                    on that method?

                                    Also, any ideas on cheap trailers?

                                    Greg



                                    Bolger rules!!!
                                    - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                    - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                                    - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                                    - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                    - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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