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Bolgers Final Word On The Design Database.

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  • rmdeming
    Okay Folks, Rich here... I faxed Bolger last night as promised and explained my position. I begged forgiveness, but explained why someone suggested it and why
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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      Okay Folks, Rich here...

      I faxed Bolger last night as promised and explained my position. I
      begged forgiveness, but explained why someone suggested it and why I
      started it (the database). Here is Bolger's response (a fax that
      showed up this morning). Here is what the first fax said verbatim;

      Dear Mr. Deming,
      Sorry about the slow response. We have a complete and fairly orderly
      archive of five hundred plus designs in chronology and detail (many
      of the 1950's designs are lost).
      The archive is not useful to anyone but us until we finish preparing
      it with comments and study plans, which we are doing as fast as we
      can, which is not very fast on account of interesting new designs and
      money to be made and the maddening distractions like the SNAME
      licenseing plot.
      In the meantime, publication of bits and pieces would involve us in
      endless requests for more information about this or that, using time
      we should be spending either doing the catalog right or producing new
      designs that need doing.
      Thanks for your interest in helping us. Please be patient for a
      little longer.
      Sincerely,
      PB

      Rich back...There was a second page, a bit more personal, that adds
      that his books have designs for people who want more of his work (75
      Designs & 103 Rigs). Also, look to MAIB for his articles or to Payson
      for his plans and books.

      While he did not say STOP, I think that it is implied. So here is
      what I do as the database owner:
      1)I will no longer add or modify or support the database. The
      Groups Moderator has the same rights as me for this database, so I
      give him the chance to take over if he so chooses. He is after all
      the boss around here and deserves to have that option.
      2) If I do not hear from the Group Moderator within a couple of
      days, I am going to delete the whole thing. If anyone wants the list
      of designs that are currently there, you can export the list to you
      hard drive. Get it now while you can.

      I apoligize to the group for having started this and then bailing,
      but I feel there is a moral responsibility here (with a little fore-
      thought on my part I would not have started it) and that is to
      respect Bolger's wishes (this group would not exist if it weren't for
      him) and wait for the official catalog of his designs.

      Rich...
      kinda hard to smile right now, but I'll try.
    • pvanderwaart
      ... I disagree with your interpretation. If our database is no more than a listing data that has appeared in MAIB articles that include plan prices and invite
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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        > While he did not say STOP, I think that it is implied.

        I disagree with your interpretation. If our database is no more than
        a listing data that has appeared in MAIB articles that include plan
        prices and invite inquires and we want keep it for our own purposes,
        I see no reason not to do so. The fact is, we get a lot of inquiries
        on this board like "Where do you get info about the Gloucester
        Grouper?" and we have to answer "from PB&F." Would he want us to turn
        them away?

        On the copyright issue: Copyright is of only marginal relevance. The
        law is that the license to build a boat is a completely separate
        thing from the physical plans. If the copyright expires, then others
        can print the plan, but still only the designer can give the license
        to build the boat. The designer's creation is separate from the
        drawings that describe it.

        Same for a patent. The patented idea is separate from the patent
        drawings.

        Peter
      • kayaker37
        I have to agree with Peter. I don t subscibe to MAIB, and I m sure anyone new to Bolgers designs might wonder as to plans prices. Here it is merely listed,
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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          I have to agree with Peter. I don't subscibe to MAIB, and I'm sure
          anyone new to Bolgers designs might wonder as to plans prices. Here
          it is merely listed, along with alternative pricing from Payson, for
          those who do not need support from Mr. Bolger himself.

          This may also free up time for Mr. Bolger, from people who contact
          him merely to find out the plans prices. If they know the prices
          ahead of time from the database, if they do contact him, they are
          more likely to be a ready and willing plans buyer!

          Paul


          > > While he did not say STOP, I think that it is implied.
          >
          > I disagree with your interpretation. If our database is no more
          than
          > a listing data that has appeared in MAIB articles that include plan
          > prices and invite inquires and we want keep it for our own
          purposes,
          > I see no reason not to do so. The fact is, we get a lot of
          inquiries
          > on this board like "Where do you get info about the Gloucester
          > Grouper?" and we have to answer "from PB&F." Would he want us to
          turn
          > them away?
        • s_paskey
          When I faxed PB&F last week to inquire about a design for cruising the Potomac River, I specifically asked for prices on Tennessee plans. I received a VERY
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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            When I faxed PB&F last week to inquire about a design for
            cruising the Potomac River, I specifically asked for prices on
            Tennessee plans. I received a VERY nice and VERY interesting
            letter in reply, in which PCB suggested building Jochems
            without the sailing rig.

            A splendid idea, and I might very well do it, but he didn't tell me
            the price for Tennessee plans. What if I decide I want
            something easier and less expensive than Jochems, and I
            decide to build Tennessee instead? Do I really need to send
            another letter asking again for the price?

            If Tennessee were included in the database (it isn't yet), I
            wouldn't have to take up PB&F's time with that kind of question.
            I guess I'm suggesting that the database should not be deleted.

            Steve Paskey

            --- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:

            > In the meantime, publication of bits and pieces would involve
            us in endless requests for more information about this or that,
            using time we should be spending either doing the catalog right
            or producing new designs that need doing.
          • Mark Albanese
            Rich, I read the reply differently, too. A comprehensive database / web site is obviously something he d like to do himself. But I thought the original idea
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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              Rich, I read the reply differently, too.
              A comprehensive database / web site is obviously something
              he'd like to do himself.

              But I thought the original idea here was only to list the
              designs, what they cost and where to get them.
              That does not conflict with the spirit anything he said.

              I worked about a decade as a database designer before
              getting tired of spending all day in front of a computer. If
              you'd rather, I'll take on the table in Bolger2.

              Mark

              rmdeming wrote:
              >
              > Okay Folks, Rich here...
              >
              > I faxed Bolger last night as promised and explained my
              > position. I
              > begged forgiveness, but explained why someone suggested it
              > and why I
              > started it (the database). Here is Bolger's response (a
              > fax that
              > showed up this morning). Here is what the first fax said
              > verbatim;
              >
              > Dear Mr. Deming,
              > Sorry about the slow response. We have a complete and
              > fairly orderly
              > archive of five hundred plus designs in chronology and
              > detail (many
              > of the 1950's designs are lost).
              > The archive is not useful to anyone but us until we finish
              > preparing
              > it with comments and study plans, which we are doing as
              > fast as we
              > can, which is not very fast on account of interesting new
              > designs and
              > money to be made and the maddening distractions like the
              > SNAME
              > licenseing plot.
              > In the meantime, publication of bits and pieces would
              > involve us in
              > endless requests for more information about this or that,
              > using time
              > we should be spending either doing the catalog right or
              > producing new
              > designs that need doing.
              > Thanks for your interest in helping us. Please be patient
              > for a
              > little longer.
              > Sincerely,
              > PB
              >
              > Rich back...There was a second page, a bit more personal,
              > that adds
              > that his books have designs for people who want more of
              > his work (75
              > Designs & 103 Rigs). Also, look to MAIB for his articles
              > or to Payson
              > for his plans and books.
              >
              > While he did not say STOP, I think that it is implied. So
              > here is
              > what I do as the database owner:
              > 1)I will no longer add or modify or support the
              > database. The
              > Groups Moderator has the same rights as me for this
              > database, so I
              > give him the chance to take over if he so chooses. He is
              > after all
              > the boss around here and deserves to have that option.
              > 2) If I do not hear from the Group Moderator within
              > a couple of
              > days, I am going to delete the whole thing. If anyone
              > wants the list
              > of designs that are currently there, you can export the
              > list to you
              > hard drive. Get it now while you can.
              >
              > I apoligize to the group for having started this and then
              > bailing,
              > but I feel there is a moral responsibility here (with a
              > little fore-
              > thought on my part I would not have started it) and that
              > is to
              > respect Bolger's wishes (this group would not exist if it
              > weren't for
              > him) and wait for the official catalog of his designs.
              >
              > Rich...
              > kinda hard to smile right now, but I'll try.
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > ADVERTISEMENT
              >
              >
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
              > dead horses
              > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
              > punctuate
              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip
              > all you like
              > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
              > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
              > of Service.
            • Philip Smith
              I *think* that Peter is correct. I recommend that you contact PB&F and say something like, I d like to keep a centralized list (database) of your designs that
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                I *think* that Peter is correct. I recommend that you contact PB&F and say
                something like, "I'd like to keep a centralized list (database) of your
                designs that have been published. I plan to include the information in the
                current database. I promise not to pester you other than asking for your
                design number, the status of the design (study only or completed design)
                and your current price and the number of sheets of drawings and
                instructions for the designs. If this is not OK with you please tell me and
                I'll stop immediately."

                Providing a centralized location for all this information should be good
                for PB&F and the PB Fans (us.) Perhaps once the Yahoo database system gets
                more sophistocated or perhaps now if it can do it, one of the fields in the
                database will be a URL to a file of remarks, war stories, building moans
                and triumphs and sailing pictures of each particular design.

                I hope that PB&F say "OK."

                Phil Smith
              • David Romasco
                I second this. It could only increase PB&Fs income and may well reduce some of the inquiries they deal with. It would also, I m sure, furnish endless topics
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                  I second this. It could only increase PB&Fs income and may well reduce
                  some of the inquiries they deal with. It would also, I'm sure, furnish
                  endless topics of discussion for this group.

                  David Romasco

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Philip Smith [mailto:pbs@...]
                  Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:28 PM
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolgers Final Word On The Design Database.

                  I *think* that Peter is correct. I recommend that you contact PB&F and
                  say
                  something like, "I'd like to keep a centralized list (database) of your
                  designs that have been published. I plan to include the information in
                  the
                  current database. I promise not to pester you other than asking for your

                  design number, the status of the design (study only or completed design)

                  and your current price and the number of sheets of drawings and
                  instructions for the designs. If this is not OK with you please tell me
                  and
                  I'll stop immediately."

                  Providing a centralized location for all this information should be good

                  for PB&F and the PB Fans (us.) Perhaps once the Yahoo database system
                  gets
                  more sophistocated or perhaps now if it can do it, one of the fields in
                  the
                  database will be a URL to a file of remarks, war stories, building moans

                  and triumphs and sailing pictures of each particular design.

                  I hope that PB&F say "OK."

                  Phil Smith





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                  Bolger rules!!!
                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                  - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                  - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                  - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                  01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stuart Crawford
                  The message I picked out of the fax, was that while he would like a database, he would also like to maintain full control of it himself. Maybe if someone
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                    The message I picked out of the fax, was that while he would like a
                    database, he would also like to maintain full control of it himself.
                    Maybe if someone wanted to keep a private database and answer the price
                    enquiry's themselves, PCB wouldn't feel his time being impinged on.

                    Stuart Crawford
                    New Zealand

                    on 2/2/02 12:18 PM, Mark Albanese at marka@... wrote:

                    > Rich, I read the reply differently, too.
                    > A comprehensive database / web site is obviously something
                    > he'd like to do himself.
                    >
                    > But I thought the original idea here was only to list the
                    > designs, what they cost and where to get them.
                    > That does not conflict with the spirit anything he said.
                    >
                    > I worked about a decade as a database designer before
                    > getting tired of spending all day in front of a computer. If
                    > you'd rather, I'll take on the table in Bolger2.
                    >
                    > Mark
                    >
                    > rmdeming wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Okay Folks, Rich here...
                    >>
                    >> I faxed Bolger last night as promised and explained my
                    >> position. I
                    >> begged forgiveness, but explained why someone suggested it
                    >> and why I
                    >> started it (the database). Here is Bolger's response (a
                    >> fax that
                    >> showed up this morning). Here is what the first fax said
                    >> verbatim;
                    >>
                    >> Dear Mr. Deming,
                    >> Sorry about the slow response. We have a complete and
                    >> fairly orderly
                    >> archive of five hundred plus designs in chronology and
                    >> detail (many
                    >> of the 1950's designs are lost).
                    >> The archive is not useful to anyone but us until we finish
                    >> preparing
                    >> it with comments and study plans, which we are doing as
                    >> fast as we
                    >> can, which is not very fast on account of interesting new
                    >> designs and
                    >> money to be made and the maddening distractions like the
                    >> SNAME
                    >> licenseing plot.
                    >> In the meantime, publication of bits and pieces would
                    >> involve us in
                    >> endless requests for more information about this or that,
                    >> using time
                    >> we should be spending either doing the catalog right or
                    >> producing new
                    >> designs that need doing.
                    >> Thanks for your interest in helping us. Please be patient
                    >> for a
                    >> little longer.
                    >> Sincerely,
                    >> PB
                    >>
                    >> Rich back...There was a second page, a bit more personal,
                    >> that adds
                    >> that his books have designs for people who want more of
                    >> his work (75
                    >> Designs & 103 Rigs). Also, look to MAIB for his articles
                    >> or to Payson
                    >> for his plans and books.
                    >>
                    >> While he did not say STOP, I think that it is implied. So
                    >> here is
                    >> what I do as the database owner:
                    >> 1)I will no longer add or modify or support the
                    >> database. The
                    >> Groups Moderator has the same rights as me for this
                    >> database, so I
                    >> give him the chance to take over if he so chooses. He is
                    >> after all
                    >> the boss around here and deserves to have that option.
                    >> 2) If I do not hear from the Group Moderator within
                    >> a couple of
                    >> days, I am going to delete the whole thing. If anyone
                    >> wants the list
                    >> of designs that are currently there, you can export the
                    >> list to you
                    >> hard drive. Get it now while you can.
                    >>
                    >> I apoligize to the group for having started this and then
                    >> bailing,
                    >> but I feel there is a moral responsibility here (with a
                    >> little fore-
                    >> thought on my part I would not have started it) and that
                    >> is to
                    >> respect Bolger's wishes (this group would not exist if it
                    >> weren't for
                    >> him) and wait for the official catalog of his designs.
                    >>
                    >> Rich...
                    >> kinda hard to smile right now, but I'll try.
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    >> ADVERTISEMENT
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Bolger rules!!!
                    >> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
                    >> dead horses
                    >> - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and
                    >> punctuate
                    >> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip
                    >> all you like
                    >> - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                    >> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >>
                    >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                    >> of Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                    > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                    > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                    > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
                    > Fax: (978) 282-1349
                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • bgbeck55
                    ... of ... list ... As the one who suggested it, I say go ahead and dump it Rich. The idea was to provide a counter-balance to CSB s unauthorized sales; to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                      --- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:
                      > Rich back...
                      > 1)I will no longer add or modify or support the database. The
                      > Groups Moderator has the same rights as me for this database, so I
                      > give him the chance to take over if he so chooses. He is after all
                      > the boss around here and deserves to have that option.
                      > 2) If I do not hear from the Group Moderator within a couple
                      of
                      > days, I am going to delete the whole thing. If anyone wants the
                      list
                      > of designs that are currently there, you can export the list to you
                      > hard drive. Get it now while you can.
                      >
                      > Rich...
                      > kinda hard to smile right now, but I'll try.

                      As the one who suggested it, I say go ahead and dump it Rich. The
                      idea was to provide a counter-balance to CSB's unauthorized sales; to
                      provide the answer to the question of "How much does PCB&F charge for
                      those plans?." So far, only one of the nine designs sold by CSB has
                      ever been entered, "Fishcat". "Micro", "Micro Trawler", Long
                      Micro","Pirogue", "Brick","Big Dory","Martha
                      Jane","Oldshoe",or "Idaho" aren't there.
                      So go ahead Rich, delete it.
                    • porcupinefysh
                      A modest proposal: If you look at the implied meaning behind the various communications from PB&F, you could say that they don t want *any* outside discussion
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 2, 2002
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                        A modest proposal:

                        If you look at the implied meaning behind the various communications
                        from PB&F, you could say that they don't want *any* outside
                        discussion of their designs. They especially suspect forums that
                        encourage alterations to existing plans or inappropriate uses for
                        specific designs. As this particular list spends a large part of its
                        bandwidth doing just that, what is to be done? Perhaps the list
                        should simply be shut down, its members disband, and no further
                        mention of Phil Bolger or his boats made, either on the Internet or
                        elsewhere, except as sanctioned by the designer himself or his
                        designated spokesperson(s).

                        Of course, to really make certain denizens of Gloucester, MA, happy,
                        it would be advisable to also remove from the World Wide Web all
                        sites concerning the construction and operation of Bolger-designed
                        boats, plus all associated hyperlinks. Any reviews, photos or
                        comments in traditional media except those of PCB, SA, or their
                        lawyer should be extirpated. All archives and libraries should be
                        cleansed of offending references. Living memory should be
                        exterminated, perhaps with the use of Pavlovian conditioning.
                        Eventually, the whole Phil Bolger phenomena will be forgotten, along
                        with the designer himself, much to his own satisfaction. Foolish
                        dreamers asking questions and buying plans will no longer be able to
                        annoy him.

                        And when, ages from now, some future archeologist find some strange
                        looking square boat scribbled on a scrap of ancient drafting paper,
                        the entire digging party will shrug. That night, needing kindling for
                        their fire, the paper will be burned. All around the campsite,the
                        forest will ring with the mellifluous songs of the three-eyed tree
                        worms....

                        ;o)

                        porky

                        --- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:
                        > Okay Folks, Rich here...
                        >
                        > I faxed Bolger last night as promised and explained my position....
                      • ellengaestboatbuildingcom
                        Eureka! Finally a fresh perspective on the silliness of it all!Let us make lists,boats,idle chatter,share ideas,dreams,eat,drink and be merry to our hearts
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 2, 2002
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                          Eureka! Finally a fresh perspective on the silliness of it all!Let us
                          make lists,boats,idle chatter,share ideas,dreams,eat,drink and be
                          merry to our hearts content! All of it will,one day,seem very
                          trivial indeed..........
                          Thank you "porky" for the skull numbing relief!
                          Sincerely,
                          Peter Lenihan





                          --- In bolger@y..., "porcupinefysh" <porcupine@d...> wrote:

                          > And when, ages from now, some future archeologist find some strange
                          > looking square boat scribbled on a scrap of ancient drafting paper,
                          > the entire digging party will shrug. That night, needing kindling
                          for
                          > their fire, the paper will be burned. All around the campsite,the
                          > forest will ring with the mellifluous songs of the three-eyed tree
                          > worms....
                          >
                          > ;o)
                          >
                          > porky
                        • rmdeming
                          ... for ... Well, if nothing else good has come form this thread, the shear delight of reading the posts, especially Porkys, has been worth it. I am in
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 2, 2002
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                            > And when, ages from now, some future archeologist find some strange
                            > looking square boat scribbled on a scrap of ancient drafting paper,
                            > the entire digging party will shrug. That night, needing kindling
                            for
                            > their fire, the paper will be burned. All around the campsite,the
                            > forest will ring with the mellifluous songs of the three-eyed tree
                            > worms....

                            Well, if nothing else good has come form this thread, the shear
                            delight of reading the posts, especially Porkys, has been worth it. I
                            am in agreement that the majority of the replys want the list to
                            stand and to be added to. So, like a good politician, who says one
                            thing and does the opposite, I will not delete it. But....this Groups
                            Moderator still has that option.

                            I ask only two more things, one that we only include reference to
                            PB&F & Payson in the DB and TWO that this thread end, die, never to
                            be heard from again (unless porky wants to write some more ;-)and
                            that we talk about some boats again.

                            Rich
                            smiling once again because of porkys post
                          • brucehallman
                            ... Like the rest of you, I am a huge fan of Phil Bolger, and even though he may not like it, he *is* a celebrity of sorts. We should not pester him, but we
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 2, 2002
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                              --- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:
                              > > And when, ages from now, some future archeologist find some

                              Like the rest of you, I am a huge fan of Phil Bolger, and even though
                              he may not like it, he *is* a celebrity of sorts. We should not
                              pester him, but we should also not stop enjoying his designs. I.E.,
                              studying, dreaming, writing, talking, [and when divorce doesn't
                              impede], building & using them!

                              While I have great respect for the man; Phil Bolger does not have the
                              right to stop us from praising, criticizing and cataloging his
                              designs.

                              After all, many, if not most, of his designs were published publicly
                              in books and magazines by Mr. Bolger. He has placed them in the
                              public eye all by himself.

                              I think that the Bolger Group should create a Bolger FAQ.

                              Item one should be: Do not pester Mr. Bolger (let him design more
                              boats in peace!) Items two through seven hundred, could include a
                              database of reviews of his boat designs, kind of like a
                              bibliography. I see it as essentially a journalistic/scholarly
                              act, "fair use" so to speak. Though I hope he would appreciate and
                              support this; I do not believe that celebrities have the right to
                              quash the study, review and reporting of their work which they have
                              placed in the public's eye. I think that a Libertarian would
                              understand.

                              Bruce Hallman
                            • Jeff Blunck
                              Two years ago I purchased Tennessee plans from PB&F for $75.00. In the same letter, he priced the Dakota and Wyoming at $300.00 each and the Illinois at
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 5, 2002
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                                Two years ago I purchased Tennessee plans from PB&F for $75.00.

                                In the same letter, he priced the Dakota and Wyoming at $300.00 each and the Illinois at $400.00.

                                Jeff



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