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PCB, Common Sense Boats, and Copyright Law

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  • s_paskey
    Forgive me -- my last post on this topic. This one s original. I did a little poking around the web for sites relating to copyright law, including the web
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 22, 2002
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      Forgive me -- my last post on this topic. This one's original.

      I did a little poking around the web for sites relating to copyright
      law, including the web site of the U.S. copyright office. Turns out
      that anything "published" without a valid copyright notice prior to
      March 1, 1989, is in the public domain. (For stuff published
      without a notice between 1978 and 1989 there was a five-year
      window of opportunity to register a copyright, which I doubt was
      done with any of PCB's plans.)

      I checked several sets of plans I bought from Dynamite -- not a
      copyright notice in sight. If that's true for the plans sold by CSB,
      they probably aren't violating PCB's copyright, because he has
      none.

      It may be the case that CSB has breached a contract originally
      created between PCB and Elrow Larowe or Bernie Wolfard, but
      the statute of limitations on any breach of contract lawsuit has
      long since expired. (In many states, it's only 2-3 years.)

      Bottom line: Unless there's some statute about copyrights on
      boat designs that I'm not aware of, CSB is probably not doing
      anything illegal by selling the plans.

      Steve
    • rmdeming
      Okay, Okay already! I don t visit the site for a few weeks cause I m busy building a boat and you guys go off on another Where s Phils Website? tangent. Get
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 22, 2002
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        Okay, Okay already! I don't visit the site for a few weeks cause I'm
        busy building a boat and you guys go off on another "Where's Phils
        Website?' tangent. Get a life and leave it alone. There is no web
        site and never will be. Get used to it. Enjoy the work he sets out
        for us, the way he sets it out. I hate all these conformists. Have a
        web site? Aghhh....I get asked that question enough to make me puke.
        Three cheers for Phillip C. Bolger for being a non-conformist. Hip
        Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray, Hip Hip Hooray! By the way, isn't that
        what we all are (in some way) by building our own wooden boats,
        instead of running to the Bayliner store for a hunk of plastic like
        the masses?

        Would we still love this guy as much as we obviously do if he wasn't
        such a recluse? Probably not. And do you know why? Cause he would
        have only finished about 10 designs, cause he was busy building
        websites and talking on the phone all day.

        And the real bottom line (my opinion) is this...copyright or no
        copyright, each and every design that came form his pencil is his.
        Period. He has the moral right to say who sells his plans and who
        doesn't regardless of the stinking law (one that in this case makes
        no sense). If anyone can't see this, then they ought to stop using
        epoxy, cause they have been stiffing it to long!

        And that my friends (and I quite literaly mean freinds) is my two
        cents worth. Now, can I make a suggestion to get back to the more
        civilized conversations about building boats?

        Keep building and for Gods sake keep smiling.
        Rich

        PS..
        #8x3/4 CSB :-)


        > Bottom line: Unless there's some statute about copyrights on
        > boat designs that I'm not aware of, CSB is probably not doing
        > anything illegal by selling the plans.
        >
        > Steve
      • bgbeck55
        You get emotional; don t you Rich. What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need any assistance with any problems? Bruce
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 22, 2002
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          You get emotional; don't you Rich.
          What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need
          any assistance with any problems?
          Bruce
        • Mark Albanese
          Philip Bolger didn t lend a copyright to CSD. He lent them art, reputation, endorsement and cooperation. They now have nothing but the art, which he would like
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 23, 2002
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            Philip Bolger didn't lend a copyright to CSD. He lent them
            art, reputation, endorsement and cooperation.
            They now have nothing but the art, which he would like them
            to send back.

            Mark
          • rmdeming
            ... Hi Bruce, Passionate but not emotional. Well, mabe a little emotional. Mostly you have to take what I write sorta tounge & cheek and try to smile at it.
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 23, 2002
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              --- In bolger@y..., "bgbeck55" <bgbeck55@y...> wrote:
              > You get emotional; don't you Rich.
              > What have you been building? Have any pictures to show us? Need
              > any assistance with any problems?
              > Bruce

              Hi Bruce,
              Passionate but not emotional. Well, mabe a little emotional. Mostly
              you have to take what I write sorta tounge & cheek and try to smile
              at it. That is how I meant my last post (this one also, but there is
              some truth to this).

              Mostly I find myself caught up at work with high tech gadgets and
              tied to a cell phone and PC with 100 people a day looking for
              solutions or something made or fixed. This week, I havn't managed to
              get home before 8:30 pm. So when I build my boats, the high tech
              reduces to a table saw and router level. It is relaxing. While
              playing around on the internet is fun and very informative (as in
              this group) I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is
              what alot of folks here are sugestting that Bolger should do. I
              believe Mr. Bolger is a bit older than I and let's face it, that
              generation can leave it or take it (the net). And why not, Sometimes
              I long for the days of no PC's. Where I work (I am a machinist in a
              fortune 500 company) we have PC's all over the place. In business
              (outside of a secretary or designer) they are the biggest waste of
              time that I have ever seen. Email this, email that. And most of it is
              just blowing smoke. I have always said that there are two types of
              computers, 1) Ones that do work and are capable of making or
              providing a profit and 2) Time wasters. Like the one I am using right
              now and about 95% of all the PC's used in companies, shops and yes,
              let's not forget the home. That I sat here and wrote this stupid note
              and that you sat there and took your time to read it is proof enough.
              We both could have been pouring our skills and time into a boat.

              Sorry for the rant. Really I am, but since I did sit here and write
              it, I'll send it.

              Now, to answer the important question: I am building a Swamp Yankee
              Canoe and learning how to swim again. You can read about my latest
              adventure at my web site (yeah I have one so listen to what I say,
              but not as I do). http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/

              Keep building and don't forget to smile. It makes you feel good. Try
              it and see.
              Rich
            • thomas dalzell
              I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very simmilar. It was only any good with a double paddle, and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 23, 2002
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                I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very
                simmilar. It was only any good with a double paddle,
                and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice I
                don't have much interest in. There is a very simmilar
                boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
                actualy does appear to have been designed for single
                paddle use


                ______________________________________________________________________
                Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
              • bgbeck55
                ... I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is ... Sorry Rich, (and everybody else) if I left the impression PCB should devote his time to
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 23, 2002
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                  --- In bolger@y..., "rmdeming" <bcsb@h...> wrote:

                  I would go nuts having to do it for a living and that is
                  > what alot of folks here are sugestting that Bolger should do.

                  Sorry Rich, (and everybody else) if I left the impression PCB
                  should devote his time to building a website in place of boat design.
                  I only offered a solution to his "unauthorized" plans sales problem.
                  Just put out an alernative. Something like the site that sells for
                  Payson. He doesn't run it, somebody else does. PCB&F could do the
                  same thing,even if it only has the ten plans sold by CSB. Easier
                  sales access was all I was driving at. I was really surprised to see
                  so many people "defending" Bolger from people sending him money for
                  plans, rather than send it to a company that doesn't pay him for his
                  work.
                  I'm glad you have the time and place to build. I'm currently
                  reduced to model building of the designs I want to build full scale.
                  A friend had offered me the use of his shed, backyard and tools, but
                  sadly, he passed away suddenly last April. My wife won't let me use
                  the living room of our condo (women can be SO unreasonable), so it's
                  1/8th scale only right now. BUT SOMEDAY.........
                  Cheers
                  Bruce
                • Stuart Crawford
                  As someone who is using the living room as a boat building shed, I can sympathize totally. Stuart Crawford New Zealand
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 23, 2002
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                    As someone who is using the living room as a boat building shed, I can
                    sympathize totally.

                    Stuart Crawford
                    New Zealand

                    > I'm glad you have the time and place to build. I'm currently
                    > reduced to model building of the designs I want to build full scale.
                    > A friend had offered me the use of his shed, backyard and tools, but
                    > sadly, he passed away suddenly last April. My wife won't let me use
                    > the living room of our condo (women can be SO unreasonable), so it's
                    > 1/8th scale only right now. BUT SOMEDAY.........
                    > Cheers
                    > Bruce
                  • Sam Glasscock
                    The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at Glen-L couldn t be nicer to deal with. The plans
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 24, 2002
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                      The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it
                      soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
                      Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
                      actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
                      must have been designed for one of the Flying
                      Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
                      an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
                      look at, though.

                      --- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
                      > I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very
                      > simmilar. It was only any good with a double
                      > paddle,
                      > and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice
                      > I
                      > don't have much interest in. There is a very
                      > simmilar
                      > boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
                      > actualy does appear to have been designed for single
                      > paddle use
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
                      > http://website.yahoo.ca
                      >


                      __________________________________________________
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                      Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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                    • Sam Glasscock
                      The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at Glen-L couldn t be nicer to deal with. The plans
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 24, 2002
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                        The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and it
                        soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people at
                        Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with. The plans
                        actually show a wide thwart for use as a seat, which
                        must have been designed for one of the Flying
                        Walendas. Getting into a Rob Roy from a dock is not
                        an exercise for the non-swimmer. A pretty boat to
                        look at, though.

                        --- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
                        > I built a very simmilar Glen-L Rob Roy canoe - Very
                        > simmilar. It was only any good with a double
                        > paddle,
                        > and sitting right on the bottom, which is a practice
                        > I
                        > don't have much interest in. There is a very
                        > simmilar
                        > boat described in the book Building Sweet Dream that
                        > actualy does appear to have been designed for single
                        > paddle use
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        >
                        > Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
                        > http://website.yahoo.ca
                        >


                        __________________________________________________
                        Do You Yahoo!?
                        Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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                      • thomas dalzell
                        I built mine in one very hot (epoxy=instant glue) day without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern, so I may have been more hopeful than I like to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 24, 2002
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                          I built mine in one very hot (epoxy=instant glue) day
                          without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern,
                          so I may have been more hopeful than I like to admit).
                          I just wanted to experiment with the idea of the half
                          tortured, half stitched boat, of which they brought
                          out some of the first. Possibly something like a
                          motor boat might work with this kind of thing, but the
                          two sections are too different to be really from the
                          same boat, which isn't so hot with a displacement
                          craft. I made it exactly as planned, but for a few
                          changes to the seat since I wanted to kneel. Though I
                          never fell out of mine, they really are perhaps the
                          only boat designed for a wet entry...

                          --- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...> wrote:

                          <HR>
                          <html><body>


                          <tt>
                          The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
                          it<BR>
                          soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
                          at<BR>
                          Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with.  The plans<BR>

                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
                        • thomas dalzell
                          They do have nice plans for a recreational shell, which look as though they would work fine, they are worth it for the wooden sliding seat design alone. ...
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 24, 2002
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                            They do have nice plans for a recreational shell,
                            which look as though they would work fine, they are
                            worth it for the wooden sliding seat design alone.


                            >>The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
                            it<BR>
                            soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
                            at<BR>
                            Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with.  The plans<BR>

                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
                          • Sam Glasscock
                            I think the problem (if you can call it that) with the Rob Roy is that the lack of stability designed in with the very narrow v-bottom is made worse by the
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 25, 2002
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                              I think the problem (if you can call it that) with the
                              Rob Roy is that the lack of stability designed in with
                              the very narrow v-bottom is made worse by the folded,
                              tortured sections at the ends, which by their nature
                              lift the bow and stern sections up--not a rue rocker,
                              but kind of a sideways deadrise, if you get what I
                              mean. That results in the displacement of the boat
                              being distributed over a short and narrow area, on a
                              basically unstable form. This is OK once your duff is
                              on the bottom, but designing a "seat" is misleading.
                              I agree that the folded-tortured bow and sewed
                              stern sections ought to work fine on a skiff--they
                              sell plans for a variety of planing skiffs like
                              that--they appear to be a very pretty boat, except
                              that they have the "Rob Roy" look in profile--from the
                              point the folding starts the keel line angles up.
                              The first time I ever saw such a design was in
                              the "National Fisherman" back in the early 80s. They
                              published plans for a "ditch boat", which could be
                              built on site with the fold and tape method in an
                              afternoon, used on the next day's hunting trip (they
                              were designed for eastern Carolina swamps), then
                              abandoned. I became fascinated with the idea, and for
                              months we had no cardboard in the house--I was
                              cutting, folding and taping every piece we had, trying
                              to get it to look right. Never built one, though.
                              Does anyone know whether Bolger (or others) has
                              done anything with the cut-fold-tape idea? With the
                              success of the Carnell-Payson taped but joint, this
                              form is freed from the dimensional tyranny of the
                              4'x8'.
                              --- thomas dalzell <proaconstrictor@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > I built mine in one very hot (epoxy=instant glue)
                              > day
                              > without too high hopes (though I did make a pattern,
                              > so I may have been more hopeful than I like to
                              > admit).
                              > I just wanted to experiment with the idea of the
                              > half
                              > tortured, half stitched boat, of which they brought
                              > out some of the first. Possibly something like a
                              > motor boat might work with this kind of thing, but
                              > the
                              > two sections are too different to be really from the
                              > same boat, which isn't so hot with a displacement
                              > craft. I made it exactly as planned, but for a few
                              > changes to the seat since I wanted to kneel. Though
                              > I
                              > never fell out of mine, they really are perhaps the
                              > only boat designed for a wet entry...
                              >
                              > --- Sam Glasscock <glasscocklanding@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > <HR>
                              > <html><body>
                              >
                              >
                              > <tt>
                              > The first boat I built was a Glen-L Rob Roy, and
                              > it<BR>
                              > soured me on Glen-L designs, although the people
                              > at<BR>
                              > Glen-L couldn't be nicer to deal with.  The
                              > plans<BR>
                              >
                              >
                              ______________________________________________________________________
                              >
                              > Web-hosting solutions for home and business!
                              > http://website.yahoo.ca
                              >


                              __________________________________________________
                              Do You Yahoo!?
                              Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
                              http://auctions.yahoo.com
                            • rmdeming
                              ... I m building the Swamp Yankee Solo Canoe right now. I tested her last weekend and found out the hard way that she is a very tender (tippy) canoe. Tortured
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 26, 2002
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                                > Does anyone know whether Bolger (or others) has
                                > done anything with the cut-fold-tape idea? With the
                                > success of the Carnell-Payson taped but joint, this
                                > form is freed from the dimensional tyranny of the
                                > 4'x8'.

                                I'm building the Swamp Yankee Solo Canoe right now. I tested her last
                                weekend and found out the hard way that she is a very tender (tippy)
                                canoe. Tortured ply is pretty neat though. When I pull the sides into
                                place on this canoe, the plywood grains (where the keel meets stems)
                                tears itself apart. Once it relieves its own stress, I slapped some
                                epoxy on the separeted fibers to give it back strength. A link for
                                the plans (Bob Sparks) can be found on my web page, but be forwarned,
                                this is a tender canoe. http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/
                                Rich
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