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Re: Cheap construction and longevity

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  • pvanderwaart
    ... enviroment ? The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also assume
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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      > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater
      enviroment ?

      The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel
      planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also
      assume that the galvanizing on a good boat nail was far and away
      better than what you would find on run-of-the-mill Home Depot nail.

      Anyway, when you see rust streaks from the seams of a planked wooden
      boat, it's from a galvanized fastener. I suppose that they should be
      good for 10 to 30 years, and even more if they were epoxy-protected.

      PHV
    • rdchamberland
      The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to the question but after
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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        The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two
        months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to
        the question but after getting burned a few times I find that the
        answer depends on personal philosophy far more than inherently
        practical considerations. Some folks could not possibly build a boat
        with luan underlayment, rags, oil paint etc. Their ego (and I don't
        mean that as a put down) would not allow it. On the other hand some
        could not possibly buy a sheet of Brynzeel plywood under any
        circumstances. Others can make a decision between when to go cheap and
        when to spend the bucks. In the realm of a 100 pound sterling
        expenditure I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go cheap
        very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another question. A
        disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it at 15,000? I
        think that in real terms folks know, as a practical matter, when to
        gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are driven by that
        personal ideology. And the older we get the more so.
        Bob Chamberland


        --- In bolger@y..., "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
        >
        > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
        Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
        coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
        >
        > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed
        re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to
        check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
        >
        > So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish)
        plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say.
        I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from
        time to time.
        >
        > I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been
        much less deterioration.
        >
        > The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have
        it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life,
        though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for
        free as a 'restoration project'.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jeff Blunck
        Very wisely said. As in my letter included with the plans: On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn t seem practical, but it s
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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          Very wisely said.

          As in my letter included with the plans:

          "On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn't seem practical, but it's your time and money, and it'll be your boat. Therefore your choice. We would prefer marine grade with Fir or Pine okay. This project is one of my personal all time favorites."


          Jeff




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harry W. James
          There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big motor yachts from the Pacific North West Principia I believe. The guy that did the
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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            There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big
            motor yachts from the Pacific North West "Principia" I believe. The guy
            that did the rebuilding had some of the galvanized fastenings out of
            her. He said that the fastenings that were fir to fir had corroded more
            since he removed them than they had since the boat was built. The ones
            in oak did not fair well.

            HJ

            Luke S wrote:
            >
            > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
            > Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
            > galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
            > ----- Original Message -----
            >
          • Hannes
            big sigh: I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer. left her out in the open upside down. about THREE WEEKS later the boat had
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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              big sigh:
              I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer.
              left her out in the open upside down.
              about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (would
              not really worry me), little black fungus dots covered everything
              (starting to get nervous) and a couple of weeks later the glass strip
              started to crack and come off the chines in big chunks (almost
              worried).

              went to the lake this weekend and dug the boat out of the snow to
              see if anything was left at all (the supports had collapsed under the
              weight of the snow, and the boat broke the maststep while settling
              on the broken sticks).

              oh well, no worries ...

              hannes

              On 2 Jan 2002, at 8:00, Bill Samson wrote:

              > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
              > Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
              > coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
              >
              > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
              > every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and
              > minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
              >
            • brucehallman
              For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see the American Plywood Association Plywood Design Specification at URL:
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see
                the American Plywood Association "Plywood Design Specification" at
                URL: http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/Y510-T.pdf

                It looks like the el cheapo CDX a.k.a. "APA Rated Sheathing Exp 1",
                which I was considering, is rated for exterior use, but not for wet
                conditions. Though their similar plywood "APA Rated Struct 1
                Sheathing Exp 1" is rated for exterior and wet conditions.

                Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                a better return on investment at resale time.

                The difference in bending strength rating is 1190 psi for the
                sheathing versus 1430 psi for the marine ply. 83% less in strength
                and 33% lower in price. They both have identical "wet" condition
                rating, if I am reading this APA design guide correctly.

                Does anybody know which type of plywood is specified by PB&F?

                Both these strengths would be actually greater in practice due to the
                lamination effect, quoting from the APA: "Where plywood is bonded
                into multiple layers and used in strips ... the resulting member may
                be stronger than a single sheet, due to randomization of defects. In
                such a case, allowable stresses could be higher." I bet that
                the "Struct 1 CDX sheathing" would benefit more from this
                randomization of defects because it starts out with larger defects
                than the marine grade.

                [PS They also write about scarf joints in this documents saying that
                an 8:1 scarf is as good as seamless.]

                [PPS Has anybody else notice that
                http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html sells epoxy for $33 gallon
                delivered? That price is not far from oil paint.]
              • David Ryan
                ... This is a very good point. My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                  >Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                  >work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                  >foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                  >Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                  >price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                  >a better return on investment at resale time.

                  This is a very good point.

                  My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once
                  upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most projects got
                  done more or less "the right way." Now with Apple computers, cheap
                  and good (enough) camera, etc, it's possible to do things at a price
                  that wouldn't even cover paying for stock using a 16mm camera. More
                  and more, being a good producer means figuring out how to get the
                  most money on the screen for a particular project. Sometimes that
                  means shooting cheap cameras so you can pay for a first-rate make-up
                  artist. Sometimes it mean paying more for someone like Bob Wise to
                  shoot steadycam to avoid even more money for dollies, etc. And
                  sometimes it mean shooting the works and going first-class all the
                  way. Most often (on my projects) it means doing everything on the
                  cheap, and keeping the parameters very, very small.

                  This why I get such a kick out of reading Bolger. Whether his
                  problems are academic (canard) or real (LMII) I love seeing how his
                  mind can get to the essence of what is really needed, and what can be
                  done without.

                  YIBB,

                  David

                  C.E.P.
                  134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
                  New York, New York 10001
                  http://www.crumblingempire.com
                  (212) 247-0296
                • Jeff Blunck
                  In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that marine grade plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                    In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                    If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With the one smooth side, finishing would be much easier and if it can stand up to the wind, rain, snow, ice, etc. that a road sign is exposed to, the boat should be long lived.

                    Jeff


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thomas dalzell
                    Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford, versus
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                      Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a
                      creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was
                      asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford,
                      versus a modern SUV with air conditioning and
                      cup-holders. I like SUVs, but I know the Model Ts
                      worked in certain situations also, but we forget.
                      These boats aren't ferraris, but when something as
                      fabulous for boat construction comes along as Epoxy
                      saturation, its hard to resist, but its also hard to
                      justify when much better boats could be made from the
                      same stack of stuff. I was at Shoal Water cruises in
                      Largo, though not to sail. They were running a
                      charter business with Black Skimmers that didn't look
                      Sheathed, though I can't really remember. Makes you
                      wonder what is really required.

                      I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go
                      cheap<BR>
                      very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another
                      question. A<BR>
                      disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it
                      at 15,000?  I<BR>
                      think that in real terms folks know, as a practical
                      matter, when to<BR>
                      gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are
                      driven by that<BR>
                      personal ideology. And the older we get the more
                      so.<BR>
                      Bob Chamberland<BR>


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                    • thomas dalzell
                      Pine what? Yellow pine ply? ______________________________________________________ Send your holiday cheer with http://greetings.yahoo.ca
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                        Pine what? Yellow pine ply?


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                      • brucehallman
                        ... should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design specification and I now believe that the
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                          --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                          > In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood
                          should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                          I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design
                          specification and I now believe that the cheapest plywood which they
                          would recommend in a wet exterior application would be the "APA
                          Structural 1 Rated Sheathing EXP" [listed 2nd from the top of page
                          13]. It seems intended for heavy industrial uses and I have no doubt
                          that is would be durable, though not pretty.

                          It is made entirely of "C" grade laminations and is of a "group 1"
                          wood, which here on the westcoast would most likely be Douglas Fir.
                          There are several types of pine listed in the APA chart so it is hard
                          to guess which one PB&F are thinking of. They don't recommend "D"
                          grade laminations in exterior wet applications so CDX would be out.
                          [I still bet that it would work, especially if you laminated it so
                          the "D" side was always interior.]

                          > If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it.

                          It is interesting that the APA guide describes the MDO as being
                          the "marine" with an MDO face, so no surprise it is expensive.
                        • thomas dalzell
                          If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble. You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal. ... big sigh: I build a birch ply
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                            You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.


                            --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                            <HR>
                            <html><body>


                            <tt>
                            big sigh: <BR>
                            I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                            last summer. <BR>
                            left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                            about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (

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                          • thomas dalzell
                            I wouldn t discourage you from using not-marine grade, I have used both, but you can t go by the gradings. Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                              I wouldn't discourage you from using not-marine grade,
                              I have used both, but you can't go by the gradings.
                              Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                              use lumberyard stuff, you need to test it. Voids and
                              finish quality are a bigger problems to grade for than
                              delamination, if you are sheathing the heck out of
                              everything. I realy haven't had any ply that was
                              reasonably sellected fail, or the scraps delaminate
                              when left out in the weather, or boilled.

                              NOt all epoxy is anything like equal, so price is only
                              one consideration. I tried about 4 different brands
                              on on boat. I had to re-build one hull when one of
                              the rbands with a cheesze like consistency messed up
                              my project. This was a kind of humourous situation
                              because the hulls where tortured ply, and the problem
                              wasn't conclusively apparent until I had totally
                              fitted out the first hull, and moved on to the second.
                              Can't beat that for value. I seriously recomend the
                              Gougeon notch test and a variety of other tests
                              depending on what you think your most severe use will
                              be. Sunlight, plastic creep, cracking, ease of
                              sheathing, chemical sensitivity...



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                            • Hannes
                              On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote: thomas, the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car tyres - lower to let the rain flow of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:

                                thomas,
                                the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car
                                tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom better.

                                Appearently didnt make any difference ...

                                > If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                                > You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > <HR>
                                > <html><body>
                                >
                                >
                                > <tt>
                                > big sigh: <BR>
                                > I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                                > last summer. <BR>
                                > left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                                > about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
                                >
                              • thomas dalzell
                                That s bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs, every
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                  That's bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it
                                  holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw
                                  hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs,
                                  every so foten the fastening, which were stapples or
                                  something, rot out and need replacement, but the
                                  plywood just keeps it together. Its too bad about the
                                  birch.
                                  --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                                  <HR>
                                  <html><body>


                                  <tt>
                                  On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
                                  <BR>
                                  thomas,<BR>
                                  the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern
                                  on old car <BR>
                                  tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom
                                  better. <BR>
                                  <BR>
                                  Appearently didnt make any difference ...<BR>
                                  <BR>

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