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Re: [bolger] Cheap construction and longevity

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  • Luke S
    Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ? Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the galvanizing, but
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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      Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
      Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
      galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@...>
      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:00 PM
      Subject: [bolger] Cheap construction and longevity


      > Hi,
      >
      > I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
      >
      > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood
      glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no
      glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
      >
      > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
      every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor
      delamination round the edges of panels started.
      >
      > So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the
      three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to
      add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.
      >
      > I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much
      less deterioration.
      >
      > The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it
      trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some
      optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a
      'restoration project'.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
      > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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      >
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    • pvanderwaart
      ... enviroment ? The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also assume
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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        > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater
        enviroment ?

        The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel
        planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also
        assume that the galvanizing on a good boat nail was far and away
        better than what you would find on run-of-the-mill Home Depot nail.

        Anyway, when you see rust streaks from the seams of a planked wooden
        boat, it's from a galvanized fastener. I suppose that they should be
        good for 10 to 30 years, and even more if they were epoxy-protected.

        PHV
      • rdchamberland
        The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to the question but after
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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          The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two
          months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to
          the question but after getting burned a few times I find that the
          answer depends on personal philosophy far more than inherently
          practical considerations. Some folks could not possibly build a boat
          with luan underlayment, rags, oil paint etc. Their ego (and I don't
          mean that as a put down) would not allow it. On the other hand some
          could not possibly buy a sheet of Brynzeel plywood under any
          circumstances. Others can make a decision between when to go cheap and
          when to spend the bucks. In the realm of a 100 pound sterling
          expenditure I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go cheap
          very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another question. A
          disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it at 15,000? I
          think that in real terms folks know, as a practical matter, when to
          gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are driven by that
          personal ideology. And the older we get the more so.
          Bob Chamberland


          --- In bolger@y..., "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
          > Hi,
          >
          > I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
          >
          > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
          Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
          coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
          >
          > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed
          re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to
          check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
          >
          > So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish)
          plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say.
          I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from
          time to time.
          >
          > I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been
          much less deterioration.
          >
          > The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have
          it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life,
          though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for
          free as a 'restoration project'.
          >
          > Bill
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeff Blunck
          Very wisely said. As in my letter included with the plans: On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn t seem practical, but it s
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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            Very wisely said.

            As in my letter included with the plans:

            "On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn't seem practical, but it's your time and money, and it'll be your boat. Therefore your choice. We would prefer marine grade with Fir or Pine okay. This project is one of my personal all time favorites."


            Jeff




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Harry W. James
            There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big motor yachts from the Pacific North West Principia I believe. The guy that did the
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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              There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big
              motor yachts from the Pacific North West "Principia" I believe. The guy
              that did the rebuilding had some of the galvanized fastenings out of
              her. He said that the fastenings that were fir to fir had corroded more
              since he removed them than they had since the boat was built. The ones
              in oak did not fair well.

              HJ

              Luke S wrote:
              >
              > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
              > Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
              > galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
              > ----- Original Message -----
              >
            • Hannes
              big sigh: I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer. left her out in the open upside down. about THREE WEEKS later the boat had
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                big sigh:
                I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer.
                left her out in the open upside down.
                about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (would
                not really worry me), little black fungus dots covered everything
                (starting to get nervous) and a couple of weeks later the glass strip
                started to crack and come off the chines in big chunks (almost
                worried).

                went to the lake this weekend and dug the boat out of the snow to
                see if anything was left at all (the supports had collapsed under the
                weight of the snow, and the boat broke the maststep while settling
                on the broken sticks).

                oh well, no worries ...

                hannes

                On 2 Jan 2002, at 8:00, Bill Samson wrote:

                > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
                > Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
                > coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
                >
                > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
                > every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and
                > minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
                >
              • brucehallman
                For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see the American Plywood Association Plywood Design Specification at URL:
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                  For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see
                  the American Plywood Association "Plywood Design Specification" at
                  URL: http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/Y510-T.pdf

                  It looks like the el cheapo CDX a.k.a. "APA Rated Sheathing Exp 1",
                  which I was considering, is rated for exterior use, but not for wet
                  conditions. Though their similar plywood "APA Rated Struct 1
                  Sheathing Exp 1" is rated for exterior and wet conditions.

                  Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                  work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                  foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                  Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                  price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                  a better return on investment at resale time.

                  The difference in bending strength rating is 1190 psi for the
                  sheathing versus 1430 psi for the marine ply. 83% less in strength
                  and 33% lower in price. They both have identical "wet" condition
                  rating, if I am reading this APA design guide correctly.

                  Does anybody know which type of plywood is specified by PB&F?

                  Both these strengths would be actually greater in practice due to the
                  lamination effect, quoting from the APA: "Where plywood is bonded
                  into multiple layers and used in strips ... the resulting member may
                  be stronger than a single sheet, due to randomization of defects. In
                  such a case, allowable stresses could be higher." I bet that
                  the "Struct 1 CDX sheathing" would benefit more from this
                  randomization of defects because it starts out with larger defects
                  than the marine grade.

                  [PS They also write about scarf joints in this documents saying that
                  an 8:1 scarf is as good as seamless.]

                  [PPS Has anybody else notice that
                  http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html sells epoxy for $33 gallon
                  delivered? That price is not far from oil paint.]
                • David Ryan
                  ... This is a very good point. My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                    >Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                    >work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                    >foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                    >Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                    >price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                    >a better return on investment at resale time.

                    This is a very good point.

                    My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once
                    upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most projects got
                    done more or less "the right way." Now with Apple computers, cheap
                    and good (enough) camera, etc, it's possible to do things at a price
                    that wouldn't even cover paying for stock using a 16mm camera. More
                    and more, being a good producer means figuring out how to get the
                    most money on the screen for a particular project. Sometimes that
                    means shooting cheap cameras so you can pay for a first-rate make-up
                    artist. Sometimes it mean paying more for someone like Bob Wise to
                    shoot steadycam to avoid even more money for dollies, etc. And
                    sometimes it mean shooting the works and going first-class all the
                    way. Most often (on my projects) it means doing everything on the
                    cheap, and keeping the parameters very, very small.

                    This why I get such a kick out of reading Bolger. Whether his
                    problems are academic (canard) or real (LMII) I love seeing how his
                    mind can get to the essence of what is really needed, and what can be
                    done without.

                    YIBB,

                    David

                    C.E.P.
                    134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
                    New York, New York 10001
                    http://www.crumblingempire.com
                    (212) 247-0296
                  • Jeff Blunck
                    In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that marine grade plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                      In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                      If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With the one smooth side, finishing would be much easier and if it can stand up to the wind, rain, snow, ice, etc. that a road sign is exposed to, the boat should be long lived.

                      Jeff


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • thomas dalzell
                      Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford, versus
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                        Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a
                        creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was
                        asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford,
                        versus a modern SUV with air conditioning and
                        cup-holders. I like SUVs, but I know the Model Ts
                        worked in certain situations also, but we forget.
                        These boats aren't ferraris, but when something as
                        fabulous for boat construction comes along as Epoxy
                        saturation, its hard to resist, but its also hard to
                        justify when much better boats could be made from the
                        same stack of stuff. I was at Shoal Water cruises in
                        Largo, though not to sail. They were running a
                        charter business with Black Skimmers that didn't look
                        Sheathed, though I can't really remember. Makes you
                        wonder what is really required.

                        I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go
                        cheap<BR>
                        very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another
                        question. A<BR>
                        disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it
                        at 15,000?  I<BR>
                        think that in real terms folks know, as a practical
                        matter, when to<BR>
                        gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are
                        driven by that<BR>
                        personal ideology. And the older we get the more
                        so.<BR>
                        Bob Chamberland<BR>


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                      • thomas dalzell
                        Pine what? Yellow pine ply? ______________________________________________________ Send your holiday cheer with http://greetings.yahoo.ca
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                          Pine what? Yellow pine ply?


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                        • brucehallman
                          ... should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design specification and I now believe that the
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                            > In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood
                            should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                            I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design
                            specification and I now believe that the cheapest plywood which they
                            would recommend in a wet exterior application would be the "APA
                            Structural 1 Rated Sheathing EXP" [listed 2nd from the top of page
                            13]. It seems intended for heavy industrial uses and I have no doubt
                            that is would be durable, though not pretty.

                            It is made entirely of "C" grade laminations and is of a "group 1"
                            wood, which here on the westcoast would most likely be Douglas Fir.
                            There are several types of pine listed in the APA chart so it is hard
                            to guess which one PB&F are thinking of. They don't recommend "D"
                            grade laminations in exterior wet applications so CDX would be out.
                            [I still bet that it would work, especially if you laminated it so
                            the "D" side was always interior.]

                            > If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it.

                            It is interesting that the APA guide describes the MDO as being
                            the "marine" with an MDO face, so no surprise it is expensive.
                          • thomas dalzell
                            If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble. You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal. ... big sigh: I build a birch ply
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                              If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                              You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.


                              --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                              <HR>
                              <html><body>


                              <tt>
                              big sigh: <BR>
                              I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                              last summer. <BR>
                              left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                              about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (

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                            • thomas dalzell
                              I wouldn t discourage you from using not-marine grade, I have used both, but you can t go by the gradings. Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                                I wouldn't discourage you from using not-marine grade,
                                I have used both, but you can't go by the gradings.
                                Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                                use lumberyard stuff, you need to test it. Voids and
                                finish quality are a bigger problems to grade for than
                                delamination, if you are sheathing the heck out of
                                everything. I realy haven't had any ply that was
                                reasonably sellected fail, or the scraps delaminate
                                when left out in the weather, or boilled.

                                NOt all epoxy is anything like equal, so price is only
                                one consideration. I tried about 4 different brands
                                on on boat. I had to re-build one hull when one of
                                the rbands with a cheesze like consistency messed up
                                my project. This was a kind of humourous situation
                                because the hulls where tortured ply, and the problem
                                wasn't conclusively apparent until I had totally
                                fitted out the first hull, and moved on to the second.
                                Can't beat that for value. I seriously recomend the
                                Gougeon notch test and a variety of other tests
                                depending on what you think your most severe use will
                                be. Sunlight, plastic creep, cracking, ease of
                                sheathing, chemical sensitivity...



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                              • Hannes
                                On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote: thomas, the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car tyres - lower to let the rain flow of
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                  On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:

                                  thomas,
                                  the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car
                                  tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom better.

                                  Appearently didnt make any difference ...

                                  > If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                                  > You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > <HR>
                                  > <html><body>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > <tt>
                                  > big sigh: <BR>
                                  > I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                                  > last summer. <BR>
                                  > left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                                  > about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
                                  >
                                • thomas dalzell
                                  That s bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs, every
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                    That's bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it
                                    holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw
                                    hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs,
                                    every so foten the fastening, which were stapples or
                                    something, rot out and need replacement, but the
                                    plywood just keeps it together. Its too bad about the
                                    birch.
                                    --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                                    <HR>
                                    <html><body>


                                    <tt>
                                    On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
                                    <BR>
                                    thomas,<BR>
                                    the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern
                                    on old car <BR>
                                    tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom
                                    better. <BR>
                                    <BR>
                                    Appearently didnt make any difference ...<BR>
                                    <BR>

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