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Cheap construction and longevity

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  • Bill Samson
    Hi, I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter. I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood glue, with
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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      Hi,

      I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.

      I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.

      I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.

      So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.

      I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much less deterioration.

      The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a 'restoration project'.

      Bill


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Luke S
      Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ? Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the galvanizing, but
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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        Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
        Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
        galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@...>
        To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:00 PM
        Subject: [bolger] Cheap construction and longevity


        > Hi,
        >
        > I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
        >
        > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood, Weldwood
        glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy coating, no
        glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
        >
        > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
        every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and minor
        delamination round the edges of panels started.
        >
        > So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish) plus the
        three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say. I'd like to
        add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from time to time.
        >
        > I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been much
        less deterioration.
        >
        > The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have it
        trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life, though some
        optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for free as a
        'restoration project'.
        >
        > Bill
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • pvanderwaart
        ... enviroment ? The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also assume
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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          > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater
          enviroment ?

          The traditional Novi (Nova Scotia) construction is for nailed carvel
          planing. I assume the nails are galvanized boat nails, and I also
          assume that the galvanizing on a good boat nail was far and away
          better than what you would find on run-of-the-mill Home Depot nail.

          Anyway, when you see rust streaks from the seams of a planked wooden
          boat, it's from a galvanized fastener. I suppose that they should be
          good for 10 to 30 years, and even more if they were epoxy-protected.

          PHV
        • rdchamberland
          The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to the question but after
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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            The subject of cheap construction seems to come up about every two
            months on this board. I always thought there was a logical answer to
            the question but after getting burned a few times I find that the
            answer depends on personal philosophy far more than inherently
            practical considerations. Some folks could not possibly build a boat
            with luan underlayment, rags, oil paint etc. Their ego (and I don't
            mean that as a put down) would not allow it. On the other hand some
            could not possibly buy a sheet of Brynzeel plywood under any
            circumstances. Others can make a decision between when to go cheap and
            when to spend the bucks. In the realm of a 100 pound sterling
            expenditure I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go cheap
            very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another question. A
            disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it at 15,000? I
            think that in real terms folks know, as a practical matter, when to
            gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are driven by that
            personal ideology. And the older we get the more so.
            Bob Chamberland


            --- In bolger@y..., "Bill Samson" <Bill.Samson@t...> wrote:
            > Hi,
            >
            > I think a lot depends on where the boat is kept in the winter.
            >
            > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
            Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
            coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
            >
            > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed
            re-painting every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to
            check and minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
            >
            > So - I got 4 years for an outlay of 100 pounds Sterling ($150ish)
            plus the three weekends she took to build. Pretty good value I'd say.
            I'd like to add that she's STILL being used, with Bondo patching from
            time to time.
            >
            > I guess that if she'd been protected from frost, there'd have been
            much less deterioration.
            >
            > The trouble with a bigger boat is that it's pretty expensive to have
            it trailed off to the landfill site at the end of her useful life,
            though some optimistic soul might be persuaded to take her away for
            free as a 'restoration project'.
            >
            > Bill
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeff Blunck
            Very wisely said. As in my letter included with the plans: On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn t seem practical, but it s
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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              Very wisely said.

              As in my letter included with the plans:

              "On project such as this, cutting expenses to ACX grade on the hull doesn't seem practical, but it's your time and money, and it'll be your boat. Therefore your choice. We would prefer marine grade with Fir or Pine okay. This project is one of my personal all time favorites."


              Jeff




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Harry W. James
              There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big motor yachts from the Pacific North West Principia I believe. The guy that did the
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 2, 2002
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                There was a story in Woodenboat about the rebuilding of one of the big
                motor yachts from the Pacific North West "Principia" I believe. The guy
                that did the rebuilding had some of the galvanized fastenings out of
                her. He said that the fastenings that were fir to fir had corroded more
                since he removed them than they had since the boat was built. The ones
                in oak did not fair well.

                HJ

                Luke S wrote:
                >
                > Has anyone here ever tried galvanized nails in a saltwater enviroment ?
                > Naturally the life of the nails would depend on the quality of the
                > galvanizing, but I've often wondered about it.
                > ----- Original Message -----
                >
              • Hannes
                big sigh: I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer. left her out in the open upside down. about THREE WEEKS later the boat had
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                  big sigh:
                  I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr last summer.
                  left her out in the open upside down.
                  about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (would
                  not really worry me), little black fungus dots covered everything
                  (starting to get nervous) and a couple of weeks later the glass strip
                  started to crack and come off the chines in big chunks (almost
                  worried).

                  went to the lake this weekend and dug the boat out of the snow to
                  see if anything was left at all (the supports had collapsed under the
                  weight of the snow, and the boat broke the maststep while settling
                  on the broken sticks).

                  oh well, no worries ...

                  hannes

                  On 2 Jan 2002, at 8:00, Bill Samson wrote:

                  > I made a REALLY cheap June Bug using luan ply and reclaimed wood,
                  > Weldwood glue, with polyester/glass taping at the chines. No epoxy
                  > coating, no glassing of the bottom, water-based paint.
                  >
                  > I kept it outside all year round, uncovered, and it needed re-painting
                  > every year. Eventually after 4 years the ply started to check and
                  > minor delamination round the edges of panels started.
                  >
                • brucehallman
                  For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see the American Plywood Association Plywood Design Specification at URL:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                    For everything you wanted to know about plywood specifications see
                    the American Plywood Association "Plywood Design Specification" at
                    URL: http://www.apawood.org/pdfs/managed/Y510-T.pdf

                    It looks like the el cheapo CDX a.k.a. "APA Rated Sheathing Exp 1",
                    which I was considering, is rated for exterior use, but not for wet
                    conditions. Though their similar plywood "APA Rated Struct 1
                    Sheathing Exp 1" is rated for exterior and wet conditions.

                    Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                    work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                    foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                    Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                    price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                    a better return on investment at resale time.

                    The difference in bending strength rating is 1190 psi for the
                    sheathing versus 1430 psi for the marine ply. 83% less in strength
                    and 33% lower in price. They both have identical "wet" condition
                    rating, if I am reading this APA design guide correctly.

                    Does anybody know which type of plywood is specified by PB&F?

                    Both these strengths would be actually greater in practice due to the
                    lamination effect, quoting from the APA: "Where plywood is bonded
                    into multiple layers and used in strips ... the resulting member may
                    be stronger than a single sheet, due to randomization of defects. In
                    such a case, allowable stresses could be higher." I bet that
                    the "Struct 1 CDX sheathing" would benefit more from this
                    randomization of defects because it starts out with larger defects
                    than the marine grade.

                    [PS They also write about scarf joints in this documents saying that
                    an 8:1 scarf is as good as seamless.]

                    [PPS Has anybody else notice that
                    http://www.epoxyproducts.com/marine.html sells epoxy for $33 gallon
                    delivered? That price is not far from oil paint.]
                  • David Ryan
                    ... This is a very good point. My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                      >Iterpolating prices which we have paid recently for plywood where I
                      >work, in rough numbers, the difference in price is about $1 board
                      >foot for the sheathing versus $3 for the marine plywood. On the
                      >Illinois that could amount to nearly a $16,000 difference in purchase
                      >price. I could take $16K and put it into some teak and brass and get
                      >a better return on investment at resale time.

                      This is a very good point.

                      My profession (video and film) is undergoing a revolution. Where once
                      upon a time there were only *very* expensive tools, most projects got
                      done more or less "the right way." Now with Apple computers, cheap
                      and good (enough) camera, etc, it's possible to do things at a price
                      that wouldn't even cover paying for stock using a 16mm camera. More
                      and more, being a good producer means figuring out how to get the
                      most money on the screen for a particular project. Sometimes that
                      means shooting cheap cameras so you can pay for a first-rate make-up
                      artist. Sometimes it mean paying more for someone like Bob Wise to
                      shoot steadycam to avoid even more money for dollies, etc. And
                      sometimes it mean shooting the works and going first-class all the
                      way. Most often (on my projects) it means doing everything on the
                      cheap, and keeping the parameters very, very small.

                      This why I get such a kick out of reading Bolger. Whether his
                      problems are academic (canard) or real (LMII) I love seeing how his
                      mind can get to the essence of what is really needed, and what can be
                      done without.

                      YIBB,

                      David

                      C.E.P.
                      134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
                      New York, New York 10001
                      http://www.crumblingempire.com
                      (212) 247-0296
                    • Jeff Blunck
                      In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that marine grade plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                        In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                        If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it. With the one smooth side, finishing would be much easier and if it can stand up to the wind, rain, snow, ice, etc. that a road sign is exposed to, the boat should be long lived.

                        Jeff


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • thomas dalzell
                        Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford, versus
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                          Bob I agree with that perspective, but there is a
                          creaping rot of luxury afoot. The question I was
                          asking was like asking how to build a Model T Ford,
                          versus a modern SUV with air conditioning and
                          cup-holders. I like SUVs, but I know the Model Ts
                          worked in certain situations also, but we forget.
                          These boats aren't ferraris, but when something as
                          fabulous for boat construction comes along as Epoxy
                          saturation, its hard to resist, but its also hard to
                          justify when much better boats could be made from the
                          same stack of stuff. I was at Shoal Water cruises in
                          Largo, though not to sail. They were running a
                          charter business with Black Skimmers that didn't look
                          Sheathed, though I can't really remember. Makes you
                          wonder what is really required.

                          I'm guessing that one could make the decision to go
                          cheap<BR>
                          very easily however at 15,000 pounds that's another
                          question. A<BR>
                          disposable boat at 100 pounds is realistic but is it
                          at 15,000?  I<BR>
                          think that in real terms folks know, as a practical
                          matter, when to<BR>
                          gold plate and when to go cheap but often we are
                          driven by that<BR>
                          personal ideology. And the older we get the more
                          so.<BR>
                          Bob Chamberland<BR>


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                        • thomas dalzell
                          Pine what? Yellow pine ply? ______________________________________________________ Send your holiday cheer with http://greetings.yahoo.ca
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            Pine what? Yellow pine ply?


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                          • brucehallman
                            ... should be used and Fir or Pine is okay. I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design specification and I now believe that the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                              --- In bolger@y..., "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
                              > In a letter to me from PB&F, they state that "marine grade" plywood
                              should be used and Fir or Pine is okay.

                              I just went back and re-read the American Plywood Association design
                              specification and I now believe that the cheapest plywood which they
                              would recommend in a wet exterior application would be the "APA
                              Structural 1 Rated Sheathing EXP" [listed 2nd from the top of page
                              13]. It seems intended for heavy industrial uses and I have no doubt
                              that is would be durable, though not pretty.

                              It is made entirely of "C" grade laminations and is of a "group 1"
                              wood, which here on the westcoast would most likely be Douglas Fir.
                              There are several types of pine listed in the APA chart so it is hard
                              to guess which one PB&F are thinking of. They don't recommend "D"
                              grade laminations in exterior wet applications so CDX would be out.
                              [I still bet that it would work, especially if you laminated it so
                              the "D" side was always interior.]

                              > If I could find MDO cheaper, I would use it.

                              It is interesting that the APA guide describes the MDO as being
                              the "marine" with an MDO face, so no surprise it is expensive.
                            • thomas dalzell
                              If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble. You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal. ... big sigh: I build a birch ply
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                                If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                                You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.


                                --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                                <HR>
                                <html><body>


                                <tt>
                                big sigh: <BR>
                                I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                                last summer. <BR>
                                left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                                about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (

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                              • thomas dalzell
                                I wouldn t discourage you from using not-marine grade, I have used both, but you can t go by the gradings. Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jan 3, 2002
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                                  I wouldn't discourage you from using not-marine grade,
                                  I have used both, but you can't go by the gradings.
                                  Some stuff is great some sucks. If you are going to
                                  use lumberyard stuff, you need to test it. Voids and
                                  finish quality are a bigger problems to grade for than
                                  delamination, if you are sheathing the heck out of
                                  everything. I realy haven't had any ply that was
                                  reasonably sellected fail, or the scraps delaminate
                                  when left out in the weather, or boilled.

                                  NOt all epoxy is anything like equal, so price is only
                                  one consideration. I tried about 4 different brands
                                  on on boat. I had to re-build one hull when one of
                                  the rbands with a cheesze like consistency messed up
                                  my project. This was a kind of humourous situation
                                  because the hulls where tortured ply, and the problem
                                  wasn't conclusively apparent until I had totally
                                  fitted out the first hull, and moved on to the second.
                                  Can't beat that for value. I seriously recomend the
                                  Gougeon notch test and a variety of other tests
                                  depending on what you think your most severe use will
                                  be. Sunlight, plastic creep, cracking, ease of
                                  sheathing, chemical sensitivity...



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                                • Hannes
                                  On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote: thomas, the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car tyres - lower to let the rain flow of
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                    On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:

                                    thomas,
                                    the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern on old car
                                    tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom better.

                                    Appearently didnt make any difference ...

                                    > If its on the ground, you are going to have trouble.
                                    > You may anyway, but ground contact is fatal.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > <HR>
                                    > <html><body>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > <tt>
                                    > big sigh: <BR>
                                    > I build a birch ply / polyester / acrylic paint zephyr
                                    > last summer. <BR>
                                    > left her out in the open upside down. <BR>
                                    > about THREE WEEKS later the boat had checked all over (
                                    >
                                  • thomas dalzell
                                    That s bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs, every
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                      That's bad luck. One thing about fir ply is that it
                                      holds up for ever. I have some out back in saw
                                      hourses that has been in ground contact for 10 yrs,
                                      every so foten the fastening, which were stapples or
                                      something, rot out and need replacement, but the
                                      plywood just keeps it together. Its too bad about the
                                      birch.
                                      --- Hannes <h.kuehtreiber@...> wrote:

                                      <HR>
                                      <html><body>


                                      <tt>
                                      On 4 Jan 2002, at 1:24, thomas dalzell wrote:<BR>
                                      <BR>
                                      thomas,<BR>
                                      the bow was resting on a sawhorse (3 ft) and the stern
                                      on old car <BR>
                                      tyres - lower to let the rain flow of the flat bottom
                                      better. <BR>
                                      <BR>
                                      Appearently didnt make any difference ...<BR>
                                      <BR>

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