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[bolger] AS-29 clone

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  • Phil Bolger and Friends
    - Just got off the phone with the good offices of TANTON. First thing we hear is something .. yacht brokerage . Wished we had time for extra-curriculars... -
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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      - Just got off the phone with the good offices of TANTON. First thing
      we hear is something .."yacht brokerage". Wished we had time for
      extra-curriculars...
      - We ask anonymously as to why the design so closely matches AS29 - we
      want to hear the standard sales pitch:
      - "I like to improve things..."
      - It needed improving? How do you know? Have you sailed an AS-29?
      - "No!"
      - Have you seen an AS-29?
      - "No!"
      - How do you know that she needs improvements.
      - "The bow needs to be submerged for longer waterline - I've done many
      chine-boats... This will keep the boat from hobby-horsing"
      - How about following seas, bow-eddymaking in general with submerged
      bow chines?
      - (no useful response) ...and Chappelle did this..."
      - Chapelle was an historian, recording the status quo as he found it.
      He did not have much time for a design practice, some - but not much.
      - It seems like the rig will degrade her sailing as well?
      - "No, I've done many of these..."
      - Do you have any other copies of Bolger's in the works?
      - "Oh no, this is not a copy at all!! She is very different. When you
      look at her bow, it's pointed, and the mast is different. And yes the
      rudder too..."
      - People on the web seem to think that this is copy of AS-29!
      - "Oh, no this design is very different."
      - Do you plan to run other copies of Bolger's work?
      - "Oh no, I don't do this, why are you attacking me? I like to improve
      things. My design looks very different... I have designed many such
      craft and I know how to do this."
      - Where would we have seen your sharpies?
      - "Oh I've done many. 70 footers and 60-footers and..."
      - It seems that you've taken the AS-29, degraded the design, offer it
      as your own, and then call it an improvement.
      - "No my design is very different... Who are you, what do you want?
      Are you a builder or something.
      - No, we design boats. This is the Office of Phil Bolger & Friends...
      - "Who?"
      - Phil Bolger and Friends. People on the web wonder what you are doing
      there. We wonder too. Do have any other copies of our work in the
      pipeline??
      - "No, I don't do this. This is a very different design!"
      - You are spending quite an effort on advertising. What to you think
      people will make of your improved AS-29?"
      - (exasperated!)"This design looks very different...!"
      - Perhaps you are the only one out there who thinks so... Let us know
      what other of our designs will be 'improved'... Good bye.

      Jeez, they are really out there!! One of these days we'll have it all
      together and will offer the chronological order of the work and its
      details. No, it's unlikely that Mr. Tanton's brokerage will get a
      freeby catalogue. On the other hand, one could really get to work with
      all sorts of improvements... Incidentally, only about half of our work
      has ever been published. There will be much time lost missing
      appointments with boat-buyers perusing Bolger's stuff.

      Do you think he'll change the sales-pitch. Well, imitation is the
      sincerest... This one is a bit close! Perhaps we'll call him again
      some day...
    • GHC
      Wow!!!
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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        Wow!!!

        At 03:09 PM 1/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
        >- Just got off the phone with the good offices of TANTON. First thing
        >we hear is something .."yacht brokerage". Wished we had time for
        >extra-curriculars...
        >- We ask anonymously as to why the design so closely matches AS29 - we
        >want to hear the standard sales pitch:
        >- "I like to improve things..."
        >- It needed improving? How do you know? Have you sailed an AS-29?
        >- "No!"
        >- Have you seen an AS-29?
        >- "No!"
        >- How do you know that she needs improvements.
        >- "The bow needs to be submerged for longer waterline - I've done many
        >chine-boats... This will keep the boat from hobby-horsing"
        >- How about following seas, bow-eddymaking in general with submerged
        >bow chines?
        >- (no useful response) ...and Chappelle did this..."
        >- Chapelle was an historian, recording the status quo as he found it.
        >He did not have much time for a design practice, some - but not much.
        >- It seems like the rig will degrade her sailing as well?
        >- "No, I've done many of these..."
        >- Do you have any other copies of Bolger's in the works?
        >- "Oh no, this is not a copy at all!! She is very different. When you
        >look at her bow, it's pointed, and the mast is different. And yes the
        >rudder too..."
        >- People on the web seem to think that this is copy of AS-29!
        >- "Oh, no this design is very different."
        >- Do you plan to run other copies of Bolger's work?
        >- "Oh no, I don't do this, why are you attacking me? I like to improve
        >things. My design looks very different... I have designed many such
        >craft and I know how to do this."
        >- Where would we have seen your sharpies?
        >- "Oh I've done many. 70 footers and 60-footers and..."
        >- It seems that you've taken the AS-29, degraded the design, offer it
        >as your own, and then call it an improvement.
        >- "No my design is very different... Who are you, what do you want?
        >Are you a builder or something.
        >- No, we design boats. This is the Office of Phil Bolger & Friends...
        >- "Who?"
        >- Phil Bolger and Friends. People on the web wonder what you are doing
        >there. We wonder too. Do have any other copies of our work in the
        >pipeline??
        >- "No, I don't do this. This is a very different design!"
        >- You are spending quite an effort on advertising. What to you think
        >people will make of your improved AS-29?"
        >- (exasperated!)"This design looks very different...!"
        >- Perhaps you are the only one out there who thinks so... Let us know
        >what other of our designs will be 'improved'... Good bye.
        >
        >Jeez, they are really out there!! One of these days we'll have it all
        >together and will offer the chronological order of the work and its
        >details. No, it's unlikely that Mr. Tanton's brokerage will get a
        >freeby catalogue. On the other hand, one could really get to work with
        >all sorts of improvements... Incidentally, only about half of our work
        >has ever been published. There will be much time lost missing
        >appointments with boat-buyers perusing Bolger's stuff.
        >
        >Do you think he'll change the sales-pitch. Well, imitation is the
        >sincerest... This one is a bit close! Perhaps we'll call him again
        >some day...
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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        >-- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
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        >
      • Chuck Merrell
        PCB&F: Well Gang, there you have it, straight from the horses mouth (almost). I sure hope I never accidentally walk into Susanne s Butcher Shop . . . a guy
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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          PCB&F:

          Well Gang, there you have it, straight from the horses mouth (almost). I
          sure hope I never accidentally walk into Susanne's Butcher Shop . . . a guy
          could get killed.

          I do agree with one fact from the Susanne/Bolger School of Boat Design as
          stated below. It ain't a good idea to submerse the bow of a sharpie (or
          Dory). We all know that's the major fault of "Badger" don't we Phil?

          I'm quite surprised that PCB&F weren't aware of Tanton's design #980 before
          today. It's been published, I've seen it in print in a magazine design
          section at least a year ago but can't remember where.

          I also think that I don't like to see such a "mono-dialogue" as this
          published on the list. For a start, it'll be around forever. Fine if you
          want to call somebody up and complain, protest, or whatever but this smacks
          of cheap shot and borders on defamation. It's rollicking good entertainment
          for us rail birds, and classic of the Altenberger hit and run style, but if
          I were Tanton and saw this, I might be tempted to ring up my lawyer--you
          never know what can happen in a courtroom when everything is argued out and
          goes to the jury.

          In my very humble opinion, this display is pretty smarmy and
          characteristically mean spirited. It's something that could tend to lower
          Phil's stature rather than the intended opposite effect.

          So, in the future it might be 1.) a decent idea to leave stuff like this to
          the realm of private business 2.) Don't think this list is a Bully Pulpit
          just for PCB&F use to air grievances and perceived transgressions and 3.
          Limit your postings to information about Bolger designs as prompted by list
          member's questions.

          And, oh yeah, some of Phil's masterful, inimitable, narrative talking of
          marine things demonstrating his superior intellect as he used to do in SBJ
          (and private letters to me) would be would be more than welcome--as opposed
          to memoranda from the office staff.

          Respectfully submitted,

          Chuck

          ***********************************
          CHUCK MERRELL
          MERRELL WATERCRAFT
          P. O. Box 80264
          Seattle, WA 98108-0264
          (206) 764-1298
          Email: chuck@...
          Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
          **********************************




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Phil Bolger and Friends" <pcb@...>
          To: <bolger@...>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 3:09 PM
          Subject: [bolger] AS-29 clone


          > - Just got off the phone with the good offices of TANTON. First thing
          > we hear is something .."yacht brokerage". Wished we had time for
          > extra-curriculars...
          > - We ask anonymously as to why the design so closely matches AS29 - we
          > want to hear the standard sales pitch:
          > - "I like to improve things..."
          > - It needed improving? How do you know? Have you sailed an AS-29?
          > - "No!"
          > - Have you seen an AS-29?
          > - "No!"
          > - How do you know that she needs improvements.
          > - "The bow needs to be submerged for longer waterline - I've done many
          > chine-boats... This will keep the boat from hobby-horsing"
          > - How about following seas, bow-eddymaking in general with submerged
          > bow chines?
          > - (no useful response) ...and Chappelle did this..."
          > - Chapelle was an historian, recording the status quo as he found it.
          > He did not have much time for a design practice, some - but not much.
          > - It seems like the rig will degrade her sailing as well?
          > - "No, I've done many of these..."
          > - Do you have any other copies of Bolger's in the works?
          > - "Oh no, this is not a copy at all!! She is very different. When you
          > look at her bow, it's pointed, and the mast is different. And yes the
          > rudder too..."
          > - People on the web seem to think that this is copy of AS-29!
          > - "Oh, no this design is very different."
          > - Do you plan to run other copies of Bolger's work?
          > - "Oh no, I don't do this, why are you attacking me? I like to improve
          > things. My design looks very different... I have designed many such
          > craft and I know how to do this."
          > - Where would we have seen your sharpies?
          > - "Oh I've done many. 70 footers and 60-footers and..."
          > - It seems that you've taken the AS-29, degraded the design, offer it
          > as your own, and then call it an improvement.
          > - "No my design is very different... Who are you, what do you want?
          > Are you a builder or something.
          > - No, we design boats. This is the Office of Phil Bolger & Friends...
          > - "Who?"
          > - Phil Bolger and Friends. People on the web wonder what you are doing
          > there. We wonder too. Do have any other copies of our work in the
          > pipeline??
          > - "No, I don't do this. This is a very different design!"
          > - You are spending quite an effort on advertising. What to you think
          > people will make of your improved AS-29?"
          > - (exasperated!)"This design looks very different...!"
          > - Perhaps you are the only one out there who thinks so... Let us know
          > what other of our designs will be 'improved'... Good bye.
          >
          > Jeez, they are really out there!! One of these days we'll have it all
          > together and will offer the chronological order of the work and its
          > details. No, it's unlikely that Mr. Tanton's brokerage will get a
          > freeby catalogue. On the other hand, one could really get to work with
          > all sorts of improvements... Incidentally, only about half of our work
          > has ever been published. There will be much time lost missing
          > appointments with boat-buyers perusing Bolger's stuff.
          >
          > Do you think he'll change the sales-pitch. Well, imitation is the
          > sincerest... This one is a bit close! Perhaps we'll call him again
          > some day...
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
          > a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
          > jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
          > a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947632173/
          >
          > -- Check out your group's private Chat room
          > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=bolger&m=1
          >
          >
          >
        • HenryClann@aol.com
          In a message dated 01/11/2000 6:29:28 PM Central Standard Time, chuckmerrell@iname.com writes:
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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            In a message dated 01/11/2000 6:29:28 PM Central Standard Time,
            chuckmerrell@... writes:

            << In my very humble opinion, this display is pretty smarmy and
            characteristically mean spirited. It's something that could tend to lower
            Phil's stature rather than the intended opposite effect. >>

            Aw...it was just a jest.....i think....i found it quite funny and was NOT
            offended by PB&F one bit...but then again i am not in "the business"....just
            a bystander...
            It was kinda like a dialoge between C.C.Lewis & J.R.R. Tolkien over one two
            many "pints"....LOL (and ducking behind my monitor)
            Larry
          • Chuck Merrell
            Larry, Rule number one: Bad form to attack (or ridicule) fellow designers in print in public, based on hastily formed perceptions from one clever phone call
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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              Larry,

              Rule number one:

              Bad form to attack (or ridicule) fellow designers in print in public, based
              on hastily formed perceptions from one clever phone call regardless of how
              just you think your cause and how fervent and righteous you are in defending
              your territory. It's a no win thing, and in the past has proven so as in
              the case of Herreshoff and Gillmer Vs Hanna and also X vs. Y (names withheld
              but I was there and witnessed first hand the damage) a long time ago.

              Item number one:

              I know mean spirited when I see it, and I wouldn't be so quick to point it
              out except that I've seen it from the same source on this list AND in print
              in another venue. Bottom line--it sucks!

              Phil just asked me if I've ever met Susanne. Of course, the answer is NO,
              but based on what several who have, have told me in confidence, plus what
              I've read here and elsewhere and seen on video tape from last summers design
              conference, I'm not sure that I want the pleasure.

              Anyway, with all deference to your sense of humor, I didn't find the phone
              transcript at all funny.

              To keep all this in perspective, bear firmly in mind that nobody has a
              higher regard for Phil's abilities, genius and overall body of work than I
              do, and nobody has been a bigger more consistent "Bolger Booster" for a good
              many years before most on this list, or come to that Susanne herself ever
              heard of Phil Bolger--and I still am!

              Regards,

              Chuck

              ***********************************
              CHUCK MERRELL
              MERRELL WATERCRAFT
              P. O. Box 80264
              Seattle, WA 98108-0264
              (206) 764-1298
              Email: chuck@...
              Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
              **********************************




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <HenryClann@...>
              To: <bolger@egroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 5:23 PM
              Subject: [bolger] Re: AS-29 clone


              > In a message dated 01/11/2000 6:29:28 PM Central Standard Time,
              > chuckmerrell@... writes:
              >
              > << In my very humble opinion, this display is pretty smarmy and
              > characteristically mean spirited. It's something that could tend to
              lower
              > Phil's stature rather than the intended opposite effect. >>
              >
              > Aw...it was just a jest.....i think....i found it quite funny and was NOT
              > offended by PB&F one bit...but then again i am not in "the
              business"....just
              > a bystander...
              > It was kinda like a dialoge between C.C.Lewis & J.R.R. Tolkien over one
              two
              > many "pints"....LOL (and ducking behind my monitor)
              > Larry
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
              > a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
              > jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
              > a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
              > http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947641004/
              >
              > -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
              > -- http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=bolger&m=1
              >
              >
              >
            • Alex
              While copying one s design may be legal in some places, it is immoral in all. Particularly for a designer who advertises on his home page: Yves-Marie is a
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 11, 2000
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                While copying one's design may be legal in some places, it is immoral
                in all.
                Particularly for a designer who advertises on his home page:
                "Yves-Marie is a very talented designer with lots of fresh ideas, a guy
                worth keeping tabs on."

                I am puzzled by Chuck's anger with PCB as if it was Bolger who copied
                Yves-Marie designÂ…

                My personal preference would be for Chuck to take this offline and
                communicate his feelings directly to Phil Bolger and Friends.

                alex
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