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Re: Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?

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  • Stefan Nohn
    Hi, what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it s light wood. What are the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building? Any suggestions? Stefan
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 2, 2001
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      Hi,
      what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
      are
      the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
      Any suggestions?

      Stefan
    • pateson@colton.com
      I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing a few hundred feet of my cabin. They were all planted
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 2, 2001
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        I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
        I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
        a few hundred feet of my cabin.
        They were all planted too close together and grew for the
        light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
        Most are 10-60 years old.
        I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
        I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
        The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
        Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
        "Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
        simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
        Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
        better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
        Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
        are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
        That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
        I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
        supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
        They come up from the roots before they break.
        But that is when they are green and living.

        I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
        Anybody that is interested is welcome.
        pateson@...
        I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
        up to you.
        "Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.

        Have fun
        Pat Patteson
        Molalla, Oregon

        (You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
        do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
      • thomas dalzell
        I get it, that won t win you much in lamination terms, but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 2, 2001
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          I get it, that won't win you much in lamination terms,
          but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of
          grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more likely
          line up the good with the bad, and as a result give
          you a reduced chance of having a really fatal flaw
          somewhere, either as regards a tendancy to warp, or a
          tendance to break. Doing this with a really nice
          plank would be useless.

          My preference is just to use my eyes. If I see a
          fatal knot, I scarph around it, etc... A lot of these
          boats use free-standing spars. These aren't going to
          be loaded mostly in compresion, obviously they
          deflect, so all the larger flaws should really be cut
          arround, since they aren't going to like tension much
          at all.

          Someone mentioned elsewhere offsetting scarphs.
          Nothing wrong with that, but if they are properly
          done, they amount to lamination and may strengthen the
          spar. That was the Piver strategy, enough overlaping
          scarps that they stiffened things up.

          Anyway, far be it for me to argue with what works.

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        • Chuck Leinweber
          Stefan: I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm I made blanks out
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 2, 2001
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            Stefan:

            I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice:
            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm
            I made blanks out of 1x4's scarfed and glued up square. I cut out all the knots and staggered the scarfs. After shaping, I covered each with two layers of 9oz. - 90% unidirectional glass in epoxy. What it amounts to is a fiberglass mast with a wood core, but they are very light, and I have been blown on beam ends without breaking anything. So far so good.

            Chuck
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Stefan Nohn
            To: bolger-group
            Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:21 AM
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?


            Hi,
            what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
            are
            the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
            Any suggestions?

            Stefan






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • richard@spellingbusiness.com
            Thanks. Probably a good idea you have there, use a tree. However, free in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas. That buys a lot of good lumber
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 3, 2001
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              Thanks. Probably a good idea you have there, use a tree.
              However, "free" in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas.
              That buys a lot of good lumber yard boards...

              --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
              > I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
              > I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
              > a few hundred feet of my cabin.
              > They were all planted too close together and grew for the
              > light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
              > Most are 10-60 years old.
              > I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
              > I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
              > The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
              > Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
              > "Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
              > simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
              > Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
              > better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
              > Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
              > are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
              > That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
              > I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
              > supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
              > They come up from the roots before they break.
              > But that is when they are green and living.
              >
              > I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
              > Anybody that is interested is welcome.
              > pateson@c...
              > I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
              > up to you.
              > "Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.
              >
              > Have fun
              > Pat Patteson
              > Molalla, Oregon
              >
              > (You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
              > do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
            • richard@spellingbusiness.com
              That s what I m going to build mine out out, and the gaff. Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside. Should be lighter and stronger than
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 3, 2001
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                That's what I'm going to build mine out out, and the gaff.

                Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside.
                Should be lighter and stronger than the other alternative I've
                considerd, solid dough fir. Boom will be dough fir, the added weight
                should act as a vang.

                --- In bolger@y..., Stefan Nohn <nohnmusik@g...> wrote:
                > Hi,
                > what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood.
                What
                > are
                > the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
                > Any suggestions?
                >
                > Stefan
              • vicskiff
                Hi, all Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas- fir specified
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 12, 2001
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                  Hi, all

                  Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax
                  to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas-
                  fir specified for my new Surf's mast. FYI, here's his (very prompt)
                  response:

                  "Spruce is (usually) more brittle than fir. If the sticks you're
                  offered are oversize, add a quarter-inch or so to the given
                  dimensions. If the wood is not there for that, use it anyway, but go
                  easy on hiking out in fresh wind. (The fir mast can be broken by
                  enthusiastic-enough hiking by a heavy-enough crew.)" -- Phil Bolger

                  John E.
                • thomas dalzell
                  The issue of plan resale was discussed some time ago in this space. I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he responded as follows: Plans bought in
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 28, 2001
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                    The issue of plan resale was discussed some time ago
                    in this space.

                    I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he
                    responded as follows:

                    "Plans bought in good faith can
                    certainly be traded, or sold, as long as only one boat
                    is built from them. We regard a plan sale as a
                    license to build one boat. We continue to service
                    plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
                    years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
                    after... (Snip). We would appreciate the word being
                    passed as copies of the CSD plans keep surfacing."

                    "(Dynamite Payson has the right to sell twenty-odd of
                    our designs, and Wooden Boat Store has two. There are
                    no other legitimate sources four our plans and will
                    not be any in the foreseeable future.)"



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                  • bgbeck55
                    ... That must be a change in policy. We ve always been told that if bought from CSD/CSB, then PCB&F wouldn t help in any way. Thomas, what comes after
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 29, 2001
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                      >.................................We continue to service
                      > plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
                      > years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
                      > after... (Snip).

                      That must be a change in policy. We've always been told that if
                      bought from CSD/CSB, then PCB&F wouldn't help in any way.
                      Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)







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                    • thomas dalzell
                      Thomas, what comes after (Snip) ? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 30, 2001
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                        Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds
                        want to know. ;)<

                        I can imagine. Nothing so scandalous was snipped, but
                        I am not going to be the conduit for it.


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