Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Concrete keels?

Expand Messages
  • mat_man@ureach.com
    Hi, I was wondering if anyone had any luck with building something like a Micro keel with ferrocement and attaching it with 5200? Thanks Mat
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
      Hi,

      I was wondering if anyone had any luck with building something
      like a Micro keel with ferrocement and attaching it with 5200?

      Thanks
      Mat
    • John S Harper
      You mean the only thing holding the keel on would be 5200? Or just using 5200 to seal the wood/keel interface? George Beuhler s (http://www.georgebuehler.com/)
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
        You mean the only thing holding the keel on would be 5200?

        Or just using 5200 to seal the wood/keel interface?

        George Beuhler's (http://www.georgebuehler.com/) book on boatbuiding
        describes concrete+scrap metal keel construction.


        mat_man@... on 11/30/2001 03:55:02 PM

        Please respond to bolger@yahoogroups.com

        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        cc:
        Subject: [bolger] Concrete keels?



        Hi,

        I was wondering if anyone had any luck with building something
        like a Micro keel with ferrocement and attaching it with 5200?

        Thanks
        Mat



        Bolger rules!!!
        - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
        - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
        - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • mat_man@ureach.com
        Hi John Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in rec.boat.building Thanks Mat
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
          Hi John

          Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding
          (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
          rec.boat.building

          Thanks

          Mat
        • vcgraphics@theriver.com
          I believe GRP boats are molded leaving an interior space to put the keel ballast which is then bedded in 5200 or similar goop. Am I the only one who thinks a
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
            I believe GRP boats are molded leaving an interior space to put
            the keel ballast which is then bedded in 5200 or similar goop.

            Am I the only one who thinks a Micro keel would be a hoot to
            build? Of course in the dark ages when I was a lad we poured
            lead soldiers, made gunpowder with our Gilbert chemistry sets
            and made "dimes" out of copper pennies with the mercury from
            broken thermometers.

            Vance

            --- In bolger@y..., mat_man@u... wrote:

            > Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding
            > (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
            > rec.boat.building
          • will
            I remember those days. Cascade boats use pro 3400 on there keels and lots of bolts. They sold me some when I re did the 3300 # keel on a ranger 26. You better
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
              I remember those days.
              Cascade boats use pro 3400 on there keels and lots of bolts.
              They sold me some when I re did the 3300 # keel on a ranger 26.
              You better run straps around the whole boat and the keel if you are
              going to try to do it with 5200 only.
              Now 5200 is some of the best stuff ever but come on now.
              I know it would work but not for long.
              Now if that keel had no weight like wood only ?
              You looking for big trouble boy.


              WILLO

              WillO
              will@...
              503-805-8421

              -----Original Message-----
              From: vcgraphics@... [mailto:vcgraphics@...]
              Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:04 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Concrete keels?

              I believe GRP boats are molded leaving an interior space to put
              the keel ballast which is then bedded in 5200 or similar goop.

              Am I the only one who thinks a Micro keel would be a hoot to
              build? Of course in the dark ages when I was a lad we poured
              lead soldiers, made gunpowder with our Gilbert chemistry sets
              and made "dimes" out of copper pennies with the mercury from
              broken thermometers.

              Vance

              --- In bolger@y..., mat_man@u... wrote:

              > Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding
              > (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
              > rec.boat.building






              Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


              ADVERTISEMENT

              <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.1681224.3270152.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705
              065791:HM/A=879172/R=0/*http:/www.fastweb.com/ib/yahoo-75f>


              <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=178320.1681224.3270152.1261774/D=egrou
              pmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=879172/rand=570247055>

              Bolger rules!!!
              - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
              - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
              - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
              - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
              <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • pvanderw@optonline.net
              Once upon a time there was a single-handed racer named (if I remember correctly) Coyote. She set off across the Atlantic and lost her keel and her skipper s
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                Once upon a time there was a single-handed racer named (if I remember
                correctly) Coyote. She set off across the Atlantic and lost her keel
                and her skipper's life somewhere at sea. She had grounded in
                Chesapeake Bay, and there was some speculation that the keel had been
                damaged at that time.

                I bring this up because one of the article I read seemed to imply
                that one of the critical keel connections (ballast bulb to keel, or
                keel to hull) was an epoxy joint without bolts. The designer (Roger
                Martin?) or an engineer who worked on the design was quoted as saying
                the epoxy should be good for xxxlbs per square inch and with yyy
                square inches of area, it should be ok.

                I can just about understand that it would be appropriate to epoxy a
                composite material fin to a composite material hull, but I would have
                some trouble with an epoxy joint between a metal ballast bulb and the
                composite fin.

                Airbus uses bolts to attach their composite tail structure to the
                rest of the airliner, according to current reports.

                Peter

                --- In bolger@y..., mat_man@u... wrote:
                > Hi John
                >
                > Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding
                > (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
                > rec.boat.building
                >
                > Thanks
                >
                > Mat
              • thomas dalzell
                I raised this at one point, as I recall, and knowing only what appeared in the pages of Outside, which is not a direct source, the bulb was wrapped to the
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                  I raised this at one point, as I recall, and knowing
                  only what appeared in the pages of Outside, which is
                  not a direct source, the bulb was wrapped to the
                  bottom of the keel, I said "duct taped on with
                  graphite
                  fibre" which is an image i rather like. I don't know
                  if this was a good or bad thing, but I took exception
                  to Outside's characterisation of it as not having any
                  ultimate metal to metal fastening, since in essence
                  you can't have it, unless the boat is metal. The
                  gougeons have said somewhere that when they attach
                  ballast with bolts, with long rods that come up
                  throught the keel timbers, that they harware bond it.
                  They screw down nuts on top of the rods, but have said
                  they don't doubt the epoxy alone would hold. In
                  general they like to see a lot of smaller bonded
                  fasteners rather than a few big ones.






                  _______________________________________________________
                  Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com
                • thomas dalzell
                  I raised this at one point, as I recall, and knowing only what appeared in the pages of Outside, which is not a direct source, the bulb was wrapped to the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                    I raised this at one point, as I recall, and knowing
                    only what appeared in the pages of Outside, which is
                    not a direct source, the bulb was wrapped to the
                    bottom of the keel, I said "duct taped on with
                    graphite
                    fibre" which is an image i rather like. I don't know
                    if this was a good or bad thing, but I took exception
                    to Outside's characterisation of it as not having any
                    ultimate metal to metal fastening, since in essence
                    you can't have it, unless the boat is metal. The
                    gougeons have said somewhere that when they attach
                    ballast with bolts, with long rods that come up
                    throught the keel timbers, that they harware bond it.
                    They screw down nuts on top of the rods, but have said
                    they don't doubt the epoxy alone would hold. In
                    general they like to see a lot of smaller bonded
                    fasteners rather than a few big ones.






                    _______________________________________________________
                    Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com
                  • mat_man@ureach.com
                    About the only thing I could find at rec.boat.building was from Glenn Ashmore (builder of 45 stip/glass cutter): I ve seen a fin held on only by 5200 my
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                      About the only thing I could find at rec.boat.building was
                      from Glenn Ashmore (builder of 45' stip/glass cutter):

                      "I've seen a fin held on only by 5200 my self. To get it off, the
                      boat was raised with a travellift and a fork lift truck was brought
                      is to support the keel as the 5200 was cut off. Even then the fork
                      lift had to work the keel a little to get it off. Overall it was a
                      smooth operation and left me with a very comfortable feeling. There
                      was no possibility that keel would come off by itself even if all the
                      bolts failed.

                      The keel had to come off so the boat could be shipped."


                      Mat
                    • wmrpage@aol.com
                      In a message dated 11/30/01 3:33:46 PM Central Standard Time, ... Concrete is a lot lighter than lead, and the density of concrete + iron could be a highly
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                        In a message dated 11/30/01 3:33:46 PM Central Standard Time,
                        mat_man@... writes:


                        > I think I have seen references to holding
                        > (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
                        > rec.boat.building
                        >
                        >

                        Concrete is a lot lighter than lead, and the density of concrete + iron could
                        be a highly variable factor. Looking over the plans for Micro in BWAOM, I
                        think the keel would have to be completely re-engineered to get the same
                        weight and CG using concrete + iron. It has a big chunk of lead in a rather
                        small keel. I don't have the saavy to calculate the numbers though, so this
                        free advice is worth just what it cost you!

                        I thought as big a fan of 5200 as anyone, but I see some people are REAL
                        enthusiastic! Whether of lead or concrete, I don't see the use of bolts to
                        secure the keel as creating any great difficulties, and I don't think I'd
                        leave home without the same. At worst it may be adding "suspenders" to a
                        "belt", perhaps unnecessary and unfashionable, but is there any "Micromanic"
                        who is concerned about being fashionable?

                        Ciao for Niao,
                        Bill in MN


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John Bell
                        Coyote was eventually recovered and sailed around the world in the final BOC Challenge (before it became Around Alone). I wonder what the differences were
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                          Coyote was eventually recovered and sailed around the world in the final BOC
                          Challenge (before it became Around Alone). I wonder what the differences
                          were between the original attachment and the one that successfully
                          circumnavigated?

                          JB


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <pvanderw@...>
                          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 6:52 PM
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Concrete keels?


                          |
                          | Once upon a time there was a single-handed racer named (if I remember
                          | correctly) Coyote. She set off across the Atlantic and lost her keel
                          | and her skipper's life somewhere at sea. She had grounded in
                          | Chesapeake Bay, and there was some speculation that the keel had been
                          | damaged at that time.
                          |
                          | I bring this up because one of the article I read seemed to imply
                          | that one of the critical keel connections (ballast bulb to keel, or
                          | keel to hull) was an epoxy joint without bolts. The designer (Roger
                          | Martin?) or an engineer who worked on the design was quoted as saying
                          | the epoxy should be good for xxxlbs per square inch and with yyy
                          | square inches of area, it should be ok.
                          |
                          | I can just about understand that it would be appropriate to epoxy a
                          | composite material fin to a composite material hull, but I would have
                          | some trouble with an epoxy joint between a metal ballast bulb and the
                          | composite fin.
                          |
                          | Airbus uses bolts to attach their composite tail structure to the
                          | rest of the airliner, according to current reports.
                          |
                          | Peter
                          |
                          | --- In bolger@y..., mat_man@u... wrote:
                          | > Hi John
                          | >
                          | > Thanks for your info. I think I have seen references to holding
                          | > (lead or iron) keels on glass hulls only using 5200 in
                          | > rec.boat.building
                          | >
                          | > Thanks
                          | >
                          | > Mat
                          |
                          |
                          |
                          | Bolger rules!!!
                          | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          | - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                          | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                          | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          |
                          | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          |
                          |
                        • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
                          Mat, If you re wondering specifically about the MICRO keel in concrete,figure out first the weight of lead/cubic foot and then concrete.You will then very
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 30, 2001
                            Mat,
                            If you're wondering specifically about the MICRO keel in
                            concrete,figure out first the weight of lead/cubic foot and then
                            concrete.You will then very quickly see that,although there may well
                            be wonderful products out there that will bond concrete to
                            wood/glass/steel/foam etc...,the amount of concrete needed to equal
                            the weight of the lead casting is rather impressive.Now imagine how
                            you would get all that concrete to replicate the keel dimensions
                            specified on the plans.
                            We won't even talk about all the fuss of adding boiler punchings
                            into the mix or some type of steel armature leading to all sorts of
                            corrosion concerns...........
                            In short,lead is hard to beat as are the time proven methods of
                            securely attaching it to a hull.
                            But then again,I'm a happy MICRO owner whoes field of vision may be
                            slightly twisted by lust.
                            Sincerely,
                            Peter Lenihan.



                            --- In bolger@y..., mat_man@u... wrote:
                            > Hi,
                            >
                            > I was wondering if anyone had any luck with building something
                            > like a Micro keel with ferrocement and attaching it with 5200?
                            >
                            > Thanks
                            > Mat
                          • pvanderw@optonline.net
                            We can be specific. From William Garden s Yacht Designs, we get Lead - 710 lb/cu ft Iron - 440 lb/cu ft Concrete - 144 lb/cu ft By putting boiler punchings,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 1, 2001
                              We can be specific.

                              From William Garden's Yacht Designs, we get

                              Lead - 710 lb/cu ft
                              Iron - 440 lb/cu ft
                              Concrete - 144 lb/cu ft

                              By putting boiler punchings, etc. in the concrete, we can increase
                              the weight. Let us guess (I really don't know what is realistic) we
                              can get

                              Iron/Concrete mix - 250 lb cu ft.

                              Now, the first 64 lb in each cu ft compensates for the displaced
                              water, so the ballast effect is that much less than the above numbers.

                              Lead - 646 lb/cu ft
                              Iron - 346 lb/cu ft
                              Mix - 186 lb/cu ft
                              Concrete - 80 lb/cu ft

                              The Micro ballast casting is supposed to be 420 lbs (from Common
                              Sense Designs site) or .59 cu ft. and will have 382 lb of ballast
                              effect. The equivalent ballast volumes are then:

                              Lead - .59 cu ft
                              Iron - 1.10 cu ft
                              Mix - 2.05 cu ft
                              Concrete - 4.78 cu ft.

                              You can see that the keel would need complete redesign to use a
                              concrete ballast casting.

                              PHV
                            • amoore@hfx.eastlink.ca
                              I must agree with Bill here. There is a reason the old timers use lead most of the time and most of that reason is density. For the price and availability
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 2, 2001
                                I must agree with Bill here. There is a reason the old timers use
                                lead most of the time and most of that reason is density. For the
                                price and availability you can't get much denser. Switching a micro
                                keel to cement you would have to increase you depth quite a bit to get
                                the same righting arm. There is another reason to use lead and it
                                depends on the ballast location, not being familar with Micro's I
                                don't know if this applies. Lead is soft and if external (bolted on
                                the bottom of the hull as apposed to poored in the hull) ballast is
                                used it can make for a very good shock aborber against an unfortunate
                                bump on something hard like a rock. Iron can send a terible vibration
                                through the hull affecting the keel bolts, cement could crumble and or
                                vibrate the keel bolts(or what ever) which would be very difficult to
                                repare. Any dents in lead are easy to repare.


                                Andy
                              • thomas dalzell
                                In micro s case the slug is inserted into a plywood housing, so you couldn t get reasonable stability from cement in the shoe, but you possibly could with a
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 2, 2001
                                  In micro's case the slug is inserted into a plywood
                                  housing, so you couldn't get reasonable stability from
                                  cement in the shoe, but you possibly could with a full
                                  length cement keel.

                                  --- amoore@... wrote:

                                  <HR>
                                  <html><body>
                                  <tt>
                                  <BR>
                                  I must agree with Bill here.  There is a reason
                                  the old timers use<BR>
                                  lead most of the time and most of that reason is
                                  density.  For the<BR>
                                  price and availability you can't get much
                                  denser.  Switching a micro<BR>
                                  keel to cement you would have to increase you depth
                                  quite a bit to get<BR>
                                  the same righting arm.  There is another reason
                                  to use lead and it<BR>
                                  depends on the ballast location, not being familar
                                  with Micro's I<BR>
                                  don't know if this applies.  Lead is soft and if
                                  external (bolted on<BR>
                                  the bottom of the hull as apposed to poored in the
                                  hull) ballast is<BR>
                                  used it can make for a very good shock aborber against
                                  an unfortunate<BR>
                                  bump on something hard like a rock.  Iron can
                                  send a terible vibration<BR>
                                  through the hull affecting the keel bolts, cement
                                  could crumble and or<BR>
                                  vibrate the keel bolts(or what ever) which would be
                                  very difficult to<BR>
                                  repare.  Any dents in lead are easy to
                                  repare.<BR>
                                  <BR>
                                  <BR>
                                  Andy<BR>
                                  <BR>
                                  </tt>

                                  <br>

                                  <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

                                  <table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
                                  <tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
                                  <td align=center><font size="-1"
                                  color=#003399><b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b></font></td>
                                  </tr>
                                  <tr bgcolor=#FFFFFF>
                                  <td align=center width=470><table border=0
                                  cellpadding=0 cellspacaaing=0>
                                  <tr>
                                  <td align=center><font face=arial
                                  size=-2>ADVERTISEMENT</font><br><a
                                  href="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.1681224.3270152.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/A=879172/R=0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/yahoo-75f"><img
                                  src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/fa/fastweb/newred300x250.gif"
                                  alt="" width="300" height="250" border="0"></a></td>
                                  </tr>
                                  </table></td>
                                  </tr>
                                  <tr><td><img alt="" width=1 height=1
                                  src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=178320.1681224.3270152.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=1705065791:HM/A=879172/rand=177583232"></td></tr>
                                  </table>

                                  <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->


                                  <br>
                                  <tt>
                                  Bolger rules!!!<BR>
                                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
                                  dead horses<BR>
                                  - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on
                                  topic, and punctuate<BR>
                                  - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts,
                                  snip all you like<BR>
                                  - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                                  Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349<BR>
                                  - Unsubscribe: 
                                  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>
                                  <br>

                                  <br>
                                  <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                                  href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms
                                  of Service</a>.</tt>
                                  </br>

                                  </body></html>



                                  _______________________________________________________
                                  Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com
                                • John Bell
                                  Chiming in late here... I suspect this story leaves something out: Could it have been the keelbolts had been removed for some type of repair? But because the
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 3, 2001
                                    Chiming in late here...

                                    I suspect this story leaves something out: Could it have been the keelbolts
                                    had been removed for some type of repair? But because the keel had been
                                    bedded in 5200, it did not fall off right away without some persuasion.

                                    I can't imagine a manufacturer purposely leaving out keelboats. Too much
                                    liability there. 5200 is good stuff, but it ain't that good.

                                    JB



                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <mat_man@...>
                                    To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 8:57 PM
                                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Concrete keels?


                                    | About the only thing I could find at rec.boat.building was
                                    | from Glenn Ashmore (builder of 45' stip/glass cutter):
                                    |
                                    | "I've seen a fin held on only by 5200 my self. To get it off, the
                                    | boat was raised with a travellift and a fork lift truck was brought
                                    | is to support the keel as the 5200 was cut off. Even then the fork
                                    | lift had to work the keel a little to get it off. Overall it was a
                                    | smooth operation and left me with a very comfortable feeling. There
                                    | was no possibility that keel would come off by itself even if all the
                                    | bolts failed.
                                    |
                                    | The keel had to come off so the boat could be shipped."
                                    |
                                    |
                                    | Mat
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
                                    | Bolger rules!!!
                                    | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                    | - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                                    | - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                                    | - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                    01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                    | - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    |
                                    | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    |
                                    |
                                  • ravenous@gate.net
                                    ... JB, You are exactly right. ... BTW, the 316 SS bolts were in perfect shape even after 15 years of blue water cruising. The 5200 kept any possibility of
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 3, 2001
                                      "John Bell" <jmbell@m...> wrote:
                                      >Chiming in late here...
                                      >I suspect this story leaves something out: Could it have been the
                                      >keelbolts had been removed for some type of repair? But because the
                                      >keel had been bedded in 5200, it did not fall off right away without
                                      >some persuasion.

                                      JB,
                                      You are exactly right.
                                      The rest of Glenn Ashmore's post:
                                      --------------------
                                      BTW, the 316 SS bolts were in perfect shape even after 15 years of
                                      blue water cruising. The 5200 kept any possibility of sea water
                                      reaching the them. The keel had to come off so the boat could be
                                      shipped.
                                      ----------------------------------
                                      Rhett, the soon to be "Other AF4 Owner in Georgia"
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.