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Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?

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  • vicskiff
    Hi, all Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15 6 overall and
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
      Hi, all
      Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
      Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize warping."
      So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative properties?
      Thanks
      John Ewing


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • thomas dalzell
      I would certainly use kiln dried wood, I just wouldn t go out of my way for it. It is often different from air dried, but the structural properties are pretty
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
        I would certainly use kiln dried wood, I just wouldn't
        go out of my way for it. It is often different from
        air dried, but the structural properties are pretty
        predictable, which is why most certified lumber is
        kiln dried. Well it is KD because they need to move
        it through, but that doesn't stop them frome
        certifying it. As far as I know, this goes for
        aircraft grade also. As to that what yo do is come up
        with a modulus, and destruction test it. I have been
        in small plane factories where they do this with a
        pump jack and a bathroom scale. They don't care what
        the species is as long as they get reliable supply,
        and hit their numbers.

        Sitka Spruce is the best of the best. Basic
        properties are a little less stiff and strong than D
        fir, but much more split resistant, Cannot be beat.
        The only reason not to use it would be if your
        particular specifications where made with the modulus
        of D fir in mind. It is pretty unlikely we are as
        close to the bone as all that.

        Another thing to keep in mind is carphing your wood.
        I started making a spar yesterday, and haven't gotten
        back to it yet, but it is coming out of a 2x4 piece of
        construction spruce, with many knots. I am finishing
        it to 1.25" and just scarphed at every knot, its a lot
        of scarphs, but they stiffen the piece, and I have
        clear wood when I am done. Should be fine. Would
        that get you into the cheapper stock?

        Piver used to specify that his 30' multihull spars be
        made of 2 2x6 for a 4x6 finished. Each piece was
        scarphed every 4' as I recall. In the sixties in
        California, I doubht he did it to get good wood, it
        was everywhere.

        _______________________________________________________
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      • thomas dalzell
        As mentioned I am building a spar for Fat Eeek. It is 11.5 long, and 1.25 tapering to .75 over the top 2 . It is from a square piece or words to that
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
          As mentioned I am building a spar for Fat Eeek. It is
          11.5' long, and 1.25" tapering to .75" over the top
          2'. It is "from a square piece" or words to that
          effect. Does anyone know whether this spar is
          intended to be square in final section? Anhinga's
          (about 80 designs later) is, but not all Bolger boats
          are, as far as I know.

          Any guesses?

          I suppose I might be so bold as to ask whether it be
          square, given the crap I am building it from?

          _______________________________________________________
          Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com
        • Orr, Jamie
          Hi John I ve got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of months ago -- the varnishing isn t finished, nor is the sail, but if you d
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
            Hi John

            I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of
            months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but if you'd
            like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call. If you
            think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.

            I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed. I'd
            rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.

            Jamie Orr

            PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: vicskiff [mailto:vicskiff@...]
            Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:36 PM
            To: Bolger Yahoogroup
            Subject: [bolger] Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?


            Hi, all
            Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit boom of the
            Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6" overall and
            1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the sprit
            boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I
            thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips to epoxy
            together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir?
            I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried
            fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
            if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails and
            screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed kiln-dried
            wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
            Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is the way
            to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the octagonal or
            round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think a mast
            should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the wood my
            sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize
            warping."
            So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty standard
            mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is unstayed,
            typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the comparative
            properties?
            Thanks
            John Ewing


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            Bolger rules!!!
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            - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
            - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
            - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
            01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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          • Harry W. James
            If you guys in the NW want some VG Old growth spruce, green, I can get you the name of some mills that can put it on the barge to Seattle for you. I buy
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
              If you guys in the NW want some VG Old growth spruce, green, I can get
              you the name of some mills that can put it on the barge to Seattle for
              you. I buy 500-1000 bd feet of stuff at a time and put under shelter in
              the back yard, so I always have seasoned wood available. Of course you
              need the use of a planer also.

              HJ

              "Orr, Jamie" wrote:
              >
              > Hi John
              >
              > I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a couple of
              > months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but if you'd
              > like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call. If you
              > think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
              >
              > I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed. I'd
              > rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
              >
              > Jamie Orr
              >
              > PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
              >
              >
            • vicskiff@shaw.ca
              Say, thanks for the offer, Jamie. Did you make the mast for your Elegant Punt? I ll definitely give you a call and come have a look. I certainly value your
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 29, 2001
                Say, thanks for the offer, Jamie. Did you make the mast for your
                Elegant Punt? I'll definitely give you a call and come have a look. I
                certainly value your experience and expertise. In return I can at
                least offer the opportunity to row on Portage Inlet some time. Two
                quite different wooden boats to choose from!!

                John

                --- In bolger@y..., "Orr, Jamie" <jorr@b...> wrote:
                > Hi John
                >
                > I've got a brand new instant boat mast I glued up out of spruce a
                couple of
                > months ago -- the varnishing isn't finished, nor is the sail, but
                if you'd
                > like to drop by and see what you think of spruce, give me a call.
                If you
                > think it passes, I've got some spruce left that you can look over.
                >
                > I glued mine out of two halves -- one full length and one scarfed.
                I'd
                > rather have scarfs than use the kiln dried fir.
                >
                > Jamie Orr
                >
                > PS Congratulations on finishing your Surf.
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: vicskiff [mailto:vicskiff@s...]
                > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:36 PM
                > To: Bolger Yahoogroup
                > Subject: [bolger] Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?
                >
                >
                > Hi, all
                > Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
                boom of the
                > Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified as 15'6"
                overall and
                > 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4" square at the tip; the
                sprit
                > boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square, tapering to 7/8" at the
                tips. I
                > thought of buying 1x5 for the mast and ripping it into three strips
                to epoxy
                > together and then shape. But do you all feel about using kiln-dried
                fir?
                > I've not found decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-
                dried
                > fir is readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I
                wonder
                > if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from
                nails and
                > screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
                kiln-dried
                > wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same thinking now?
                > Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
                the way
                > to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
                octagonal or
                > round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I don't think
                a mast
                > should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at least not the
                wood my
                > sources carry. Always laminate from at least two layers to minimize
                > warping."
                > So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
                standard
                > mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast is
                unstayed,
                > typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What are the
                comparative
                > properties?
                > Thanks
                > John Ewing
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
                like
                > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
                MA,
                > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
                Hi John, Can t really give you technical details regarding various woods but I remember when it came time to build my SURF mast,I went to the local Canadian
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 30, 2001
                  Hi John,
                  Can't really give you technical details regarding various woods
                  but I remember when it came time to build my SURF mast,I went to the
                  local Canadian Tire store to their lumber dept.(ha!),picked up a
                  bunch of 3/4 X 2 inch pine sticks of about 8 to 10 in length and then
                  just glued them together with lots of srews to back up the glue.
                  This was definetly not premium grade anything but did hold up very
                  well until I sold her.The key was the laminating of the cheap wood
                  and then keeping it well varnished.The SURFs sail area is not that
                  great and by the time the wind is really blowing,there is a good
                  chance you will be down to oars or beached. With the sprit rig,it is
                  also an easy matter to dump the wind,even in a dead run,by just
                  letting go of the mainsheet.The mainsail will luff forward of the
                  mast......a strange thing to see but a good last ditch strategy!
                  Sitka spruce is really really nice stuff,especially if you can
                  get it cheap,but might be too rich for the simple proliteriate blood
                  of the SURF.
                  Got any pictures of your SURF for us visual types....?Boating has
                  come to an end for us in this neck of the woods!

                  Sincerely,
                  Peter Lenihan...............




                  --- In bolger@y..., vicskiff <vicskiff@s...> wrote:
                  > Hi, all
                  > Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
                  boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified
                  as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4"
                  square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square,
                  tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast
                  and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape.
                  But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found
                  decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is
                  readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
                  if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails
                  and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
                  kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same
                  thinking now?
                  > Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
                  the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
                  octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I
                  don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at
                  least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least
                  two layers to minimize warping."
                  > So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
                  standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast
                  is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What
                  are the comparative properties?
                  > Thanks
                  > John Ewing
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • pvanderw@optonline.net
                  When I built the mast for my elegant punt about 20 years ago, I bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on his radial arm saw. When I
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 30, 2001
                    When I built the mast for my elegant punt about 20 years ago, I
                    bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on his
                    radial arm saw. When I glued the two halves together, it was a
                    perfect size mast blank. I don't remember the dimensions, but it
                    worked out so neatly that I assumed it was what PCB had in mind when
                    he drew the plan.

                    I got as far as rough-shaping the mast but no farther. It is still in
                    my garage (does this count as air-dried lumber?). The mast, rudder
                    blade, leeboard blade, and tiller could be available to anyone with
                    an interest and a use. The tiller is even varnished.

                    Actually, the punt, well checked and covered with English ivy, might
                    be available too.

                    Peter
                  • vicskiff
                    ... Peter Even though I launched it in September, I don t have pictures of the completed Surf as yet because of camera difficulties (including dropping a
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 30, 2001
                      --- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
                      > Got any pictures of your SURF for us visual types....?Boating has
                      > come to an end for us in this neck of the woods!

                      Peter
                      Even though I launched it in September, I don't have pictures of the completed Surf as yet because of camera difficulties (including dropping a *very* disposable one in the drink while working on the new dock). However, I have an album of construction photos at PhotoWorks in Seattle. You should be able to see them by clicking on
                      http://photomail.photoworks.com/sharing/album.asp?Key=4430078432400000
                      Sorry to hear your season is finished on the St. Lawrence.

                      John Ewing

                      .


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • vicskiff@shaw.ca
                      Hmmm... Tempting, very tempting, Peter. But where are you located? John Ewing ... his ... when ... in ... might
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 30, 2001
                        Hmmm... Tempting, very tempting, Peter. But where are you located?

                        John Ewing

                        --- In bolger@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:
                        > When I built the mast for my elegant punt about 20 years ago, I
                        > bought a stock size of Douglas Fir. A friend ripped it in two on
                        his
                        > radial arm saw. When I glued the two halves together, it was a
                        > perfect size mast blank. I don't remember the dimensions, but it
                        > worked out so neatly that I assumed it was what PCB had in mind
                        when
                        > he drew the plan.
                        >
                        > I got as far as rough-shaping the mast but no farther. It is still
                        in
                        > my garage (does this count as air-dried lumber?). The mast, rudder
                        > blade, leeboard blade, and tiller could be available to anyone with
                        > an interest and a use. The tiller is even varnished.
                        >
                        > Actually, the punt, well checked and covered with English ivy,
                        might
                        > be available too.
                        >
                        > Peter
                      • thomas dalzell
                        Let us say you end up with some of that crapy pine, or fir, or whatever, and some nice sitka. Here is how you could go, and any of you engineers out there are
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 30, 2001
                          Let us say you end up with some of that crapy pine, or
                          fir, or whatever, and some nice sitka. Here is how
                          you could go, and any of you engineers out there are
                          welcome to jump in to get this right.

                          The tester I refered to was a welded (but could be
                          wood H fram, that suported a stick of lumber on top of
                          a bottle jack, resting on a bathroom scale. What they
                          did at the aircraft factory was pump up the jack until
                          the wooden stick broke, and followed the load reading
                          on the bathroom scale. Mine may be one of the only
                          households that doesn't have a bottle jack or a
                          bathroom scale, but I imagine they are pretty comon.
                          You could probably find some household structure, like
                          two chairs or something that could stand in for the
                          welded frame.

                          Two interesting tests would be to put in two identical
                          samples, in turn, and see how much load was required
                          to bend them, and how much load is required to break
                          them.

                          Ok here is the sticky part. My understanding is that
                          if it took 50# to bend one stick one inch, and 100# to
                          bend another, then the first would need to be
                          stiffened in the direction of the load by the cube
                          root of 2, or 1.25 times. (you want to choose a
                          degree of deflection that doesn't consitute breaking
                          the stick). At the same time if one broke at half the
                          load, then it would need to be strengthened by being
                          thickened in the direction of the load by the square
                          root of 2, or 1.44 times. Is that right? Close?
                          There is beam load software, and I have a book that
                          explains beams also, it is more complicated if your
                          structure is hollow, or you are going to gross up in
                          both directions at once.

                          The point is that if you work this system well, it is
                          faster than writing an email, and gives you results
                          that are specific to the samples you have in hand. Is
                          D fir stronger than Sitka? that's what the books say,
                          but it is totally related to the actual piece you have
                          in hand. What about kiln dried wood? I am sure a good
                          piece of KD wood is better than something with grain
                          run out, etc... There are huge variances.

                          I became aware that with timbers, boats, and
                          airplanes, the various crafts had quite different
                          perceptions of what scarph angle was the minimum for
                          100% strength. Why is that? Wouldn't it be the same
                          for any piece of wood? Not if your grading is
                          different. So if you want to buy wood that is
                          ungraded, or graded for houses, but use it in boats or
                          planes, you have to have your own approach to grading.
                          A lot of experienced workers will know what they have
                          just by how it looks, and feels when you work it. But
                          some tests can be useful also.

                          By the way, ripping a pole in half, and regluing it
                          along the neutral axis, I am not sure where that gets
                          you. I mean it can give you a better grade, because
                          often there is pith up the center of a 2x, so that can
                          be positive, but as far as lamination is concerned, I
                          am not sure what is achieved.




                          _______________________________________________________
                          Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com
                        • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                          The drill is to rip the piece of wood in half, then turn one half end for end before gluing them pieces back together. It s supposed to reduce the chance of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 1 6:16 PM
                            The drill is to rip the piece of wood in half, then turn one half end for
                            end before gluing them pieces back together. It's supposed to reduce the
                            chance of warping and lots of builders have used the method over the years,
                            whetehr it works or not...

                            On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 14:56:56 -0500 (EST), thomas dalzell wrote:
                            > ...
                            > By the way, ripping a pole in half, and regluing it
                            > along the neutral axis, I am not sure where that gets
                            > you. I mean it can give you a better grade, because
                            > often there is pith up the center of a 2x, so that can
                            > be positive, but as far as lamination is concerned, I
                            > am not sure what is achieved.


                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            I must say I find television very educational. The minute somebody turns
                            it on, I go to the library and read a good book. <Groucho Marx>
                          • pateson@colton.com
                            They say confession is good fo the soul, and under the threat of being branded a heretic and thrown out of the group, I must confess, that when I used to sail
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 1 8:45 PM
                              They say confession is good fo the soul, and under
                              the threat of being branded a heretic and thrown out
                              of the group, I must confess, that when I used to sail
                              my Elegant Punt "Toad", I used a piece of 2" Aluminum
                              irrigation pipe for a mast.
                              Sorry Folks.

                              I feel a lot better now.

                              (It was cheap, and it never broke.)

                              Pat

                              --- In bolger@y..., vicskiff <vicskiff@s...> wrote:
                              > Hi, all
                              > Bolger and Payson specify Douglas fir for the mast and sprit
                              boom of the Surf (and presumably Teal, etc.). The mast is specified
                              as 15'6" overall and 1-3/4" square at the butt, tapering to 3/4"
                              square at the tip; the sprit boom is 9'6" overall and 1-5/8" square,
                              tapering to 7/8" at the tips. I thought of buying 1x5 for the mast
                              and ripping it into three strips to epoxy together and then shape.
                              But do you all feel about using kiln-dried fir? I've not found
                              decent Doug fir here in Victoria. Lovely, clear kiln-dried fir is
                              readily available but (apart from being pricey, of course) I wonder
                              if it isn't *too* dry because I experienced some splitting from nails
                              and screws when used for framing, etc. I believe this group discussed
                              kiln-dried wood previously and the consensus was against it. Same
                              thinking now?
                              > Jim Michalak says regarding sharpie masts: "...low tech wood is
                              the way to go....The square masts are a lot easier to build than the
                              octagonal or round masts. I suspect they work about as well... But I
                              don't think a mast should ever be made of a single piece of wood, at
                              least not the wood my sources carry. Always laminate from at least
                              two layers to minimize warping."
                              > So what about sitka spruce? I understand sitka spruce is pretty
                              standard mast material in this neck of the woods. But the Surf's mast
                              is unstayed, typical of the type, and Bolger specifies Doug fir. What
                              are the comparative properties?
                              > Thanks
                              > John Ewing
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Stefan Nohn
                              Hi, what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it s light wood. What are the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building? Any suggestions? Stefan
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 2 5:21 AM
                                Hi,
                                what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
                                are
                                the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
                                Any suggestions?

                                Stefan
                              • pateson@colton.com
                                I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing a few hundred feet of my cabin. They were all planted
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 2 9:09 AM
                                  I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
                                  I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
                                  a few hundred feet of my cabin.
                                  They were all planted too close together and grew for the
                                  light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
                                  Most are 10-60 years old.
                                  I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
                                  I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
                                  The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
                                  Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
                                  "Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
                                  simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
                                  Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
                                  better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
                                  Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
                                  are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
                                  That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
                                  I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
                                  supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
                                  They come up from the roots before they break.
                                  But that is when they are green and living.

                                  I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
                                  Anybody that is interested is welcome.
                                  pateson@...
                                  I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
                                  up to you.
                                  "Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.

                                  Have fun
                                  Pat Patteson
                                  Molalla, Oregon

                                  (You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
                                  do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
                                • thomas dalzell
                                  I get it, that won t win you much in lamination terms, but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 2 6:05 PM
                                    I get it, that won't win you much in lamination terms,
                                    but what it does is if there is a no-fatal degree of
                                    grain run-out, etc... the inversion will more likely
                                    line up the good with the bad, and as a result give
                                    you a reduced chance of having a really fatal flaw
                                    somewhere, either as regards a tendancy to warp, or a
                                    tendance to break. Doing this with a really nice
                                    plank would be useless.

                                    My preference is just to use my eyes. If I see a
                                    fatal knot, I scarph around it, etc... A lot of these
                                    boats use free-standing spars. These aren't going to
                                    be loaded mostly in compresion, obviously they
                                    deflect, so all the larger flaws should really be cut
                                    arround, since they aren't going to like tension much
                                    at all.

                                    Someone mentioned elsewhere offsetting scarphs.
                                    Nothing wrong with that, but if they are properly
                                    done, they amount to lamination and may strengthen the
                                    spar. That was the Piver strategy, enough overlaping
                                    scarps that they stiffened things up.

                                    Anyway, far be it for me to argue with what works.

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                                  • Chuck Leinweber
                                    Stefan: I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm I made blanks out
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 2 9:52 PM
                                      Stefan:

                                      I used Western Red Cedar for the masts and booms and yard on my Caprice:
                                      http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/caprice/index.htm
                                      I made blanks out of 1x4's scarfed and glued up square. I cut out all the knots and staggered the scarfs. After shaping, I covered each with two layers of 9oz. - 90% unidirectional glass in epoxy. What it amounts to is a fiberglass mast with a wood core, but they are very light, and I have been blown on beam ends without breaking anything. So far so good.

                                      Chuck
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Stefan Nohn
                                      To: bolger-group
                                      Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:21 AM
                                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Kiln-Dried Fir for Surf Mast? Spruce?


                                      Hi,
                                      what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood. What
                                      are
                                      the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
                                      Any suggestions?

                                      Stefan






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • richard@spellingbusiness.com
                                      Thanks. Probably a good idea you have there, use a tree. However, free in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas. That buys a lot of good lumber
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 3 10:13 AM
                                        Thanks. Probably a good idea you have there, use a tree.
                                        However, "free" in this case is a 3000 mile trip, about $200 in gas.
                                        That buys a lot of good lumber yard boards...

                                        --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
                                        > I think this is where I came in a long time ago, but
                                        > I still have a Lot Douglas Fir poles growing withing
                                        > a few hundred feet of my cabin.
                                        > They were all planted too close together and grew for the
                                        > light. Very tall and skinny. Few limbs.
                                        > Most are 10-60 years old.
                                        > I might have some tops that would be "Surf" size.
                                        > I know I have anything larger, up to Smalll Schooner.
                                        > The Tapper to length is about right for mast building.
                                        > Also could be used for Booms or Yards.
                                        > "Simple" Is best, and putting up a "Tree" is about as
                                        > simple as it gets. Built in "Tapper".
                                        > Seriously, the round "tree" distibutes the forces much
                                        > better that sawn lumber. Center of Tree is center of mast.
                                        > Radial grain. There Is No "Cross Grain" and Knots
                                        > are not nearly the factor they are in a "Board".
                                        > That's why a laminated "Board" mast is much better than solid.
                                        > I can also give personal testimony to these "Masts"
                                        > supporting their tops in 60+ Knot winds.
                                        > They come up from the roots before they break.
                                        > But that is when they are green and living.
                                        >
                                        > I live about 30 miles South East of Portland, Oregon, USA.
                                        > Anybody that is interested is welcome.
                                        > pateson@c...
                                        > I can cut it to lenght, but transportation from here is
                                        > up to you.
                                        > "Free" Just a ride on your boat when you get it build.
                                        >
                                        > Have fun
                                        > Pat Patteson
                                        > Molalla, Oregon
                                        >
                                        > (You would think with all these "Free" masts around, I would
                                        > do better that Irrigation pipe to the "Toad".)
                                      • richard@spellingbusiness.com
                                        That s what I m going to build mine out out, and the gaff. Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside. Should be lighter and stronger than
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Dec 3 10:18 AM
                                          That's what I'm going to build mine out out, and the gaff.

                                          Will be solid cedar, with a layer of fiberglass on the outside.
                                          Should be lighter and stronger than the other alternative I've
                                          considerd, solid dough fir. Boom will be dough fir, the added weight
                                          should act as a vang.

                                          --- In bolger@y..., Stefan Nohn <nohnmusik@g...> wrote:
                                          > Hi,
                                          > what is about western red cedar for mast-building, it's light wood.
                                          What
                                          > are
                                          > the drawbacks of this wood for mast-building?
                                          > Any suggestions?
                                          >
                                          > Stefan
                                        • vicskiff
                                          Hi, all Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas- fir specified
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Dec 12 2:14 PM
                                            Hi, all

                                            Returning to an earlier thread I initiated... Yesterday I sent a fax
                                            to PCB asking him about using Sitka spruce rather than the Douglas-
                                            fir specified for my new Surf's mast. FYI, here's his (very prompt)
                                            response:

                                            "Spruce is (usually) more brittle than fir. If the sticks you're
                                            offered are oversize, add a quarter-inch or so to the given
                                            dimensions. If the wood is not there for that, use it anyway, but go
                                            easy on hiking out in fresh wind. (The fir mast can be broken by
                                            enthusiastic-enough hiking by a heavy-enough crew.)" -- Phil Bolger

                                            John E.
                                          • thomas dalzell
                                            The issue of plan resale was discussed some time ago in this space. I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he responded as follows: Plans bought in
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Dec 28 11:36 PM
                                              The issue of plan resale was discussed some time ago
                                              in this space.

                                              I raised it with Bolger in a recent letter, and he
                                              responded as follows:

                                              "Plans bought in good faith can
                                              certainly be traded, or sold, as long as only one boat
                                              is built from them. We regard a plan sale as a
                                              license to build one boat. We continue to service
                                              plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
                                              years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
                                              after... (Snip). We would appreciate the word being
                                              passed as copies of the CSD plans keep surfacing."

                                              "(Dynamite Payson has the right to sell twenty-odd of
                                              our designs, and Wooden Boat Store has two. There are
                                              no other legitimate sources four our plans and will
                                              not be any in the foreseeable future.)"



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                                            • bgbeck55
                                              ... That must be a change in policy. We ve always been told that if bought from CSD/CSB, then PCB&F wouldn t help in any way. Thomas, what comes after
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Dec 29 1:33 AM
                                                >.................................We continue to service
                                                > plans from Common Sense Designs, but it is now several
                                                > years since we withdrew CSD's rights to sell our plans
                                                > after... (Snip).

                                                That must be a change in policy. We've always been told that if
                                                bought from CSD/CSB, then PCB&F wouldn't help in any way.
                                                Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)







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                                              • thomas dalzell
                                                Thomas, what comes after (Snip) ? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Dec 30 3:25 PM
                                                  Thomas, what comes after "(Snip)"? Inquiring minds
                                                  want to know. ;)<

                                                  I can imagine. Nothing so scandalous was snipped, but
                                                  I am not going to be the conduit for it.


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