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[bolger] Instant Boatbuilder

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  • Robert N. Lundy
    Chuck, thank you once again for the archive. I ve read through #6 tonight and was absolutely fascinated. A few items that could bear some discussion here: 1.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 3, 2000
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      Chuck, thank you once again for the archive. I've read through #6 tonight
      and was absolutely fascinated.

      A few items that could bear some discussion here:

      1. Use of Mat with or without glass cloth: This has intrigued me since the
      guy at FGCI told me that glass gives abrasion resistance, while mat gives
      lateral stiffness. Since the spec scantlings for all these boats is, er,
      light, use of mat might have some pluses. What are the minuses?

      2. Phil's discussion of the bottom used on Pointer: three layers of 10oz
      cloth! even if the resin used was polyester, that would have been one thick,
      hard heavy bottom. Has anyone on the list used multiple sheathing layers on
      any size boat? What are the +/-

      3. The writer mentions this misery of sanding glass and the itch that keeps
      on itching. I sanded off the glob and uneeven areas on my Windsprint bottom
      last weekend and luckily remembered my Dad's old antidote to working with
      fiberglass insulation-pour and rub in white vinegar to any parts of the bod
      that got exposed while showering. This won't kill the itch, but it seems to
      go away much faster.

      4. What is this Hull guy doing now? Did he secretly change his name to
      Craig O'Donnell and move to Maryland? :)

      Robert & Amy Lundy
      St. Petersburg, fla.
      robert@...
      amy@...
    • Hwal@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:53:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, robert@seawyse.com writes:
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 5, 2000
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        In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:53:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        robert@... writes:

        << The writer mentions this misery of sanding glass and the itch that keeps
        on itching. I sanded off the glob and uneeven areas on my Windsprint bottom
        last weekend and luckily remembered my Dad's old antidote to working with
        fiberglass insulation-pour and rub in white vinegar to any parts of the bod
        that got exposed while showering. This won't kill the itch, but it seems to
        go away much faster.
        >>

        This might be a tad late - but I have found some relief from itch by vacuming
        my arms and legs with my shop vac! Steve Anderson
      • Richard Spelling
        I use sanders with dust collection systems, and set up a fan to suck what they miss out of the building. ... -- Richard
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 5, 2000
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          I use sanders with dust collection systems, and set up a fan to suck
          what they miss out of the building.

          Hwal@... wrote:
          >
          > In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:53:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          > robert@... writes:
          >
          > << The writer mentions this misery of sanding glass and the itch that keeps
          > on itching. I sanded off the glob and uneeven areas on my Windsprint bottom
          > last weekend and luckily remembered my Dad's old antidote to working with
          > fiberglass insulation-pour and rub in white vinegar to any parts of the bod
          > that got exposed while showering. This won't kill the itch, but it seems to
          > go away much faster.
          > >>
          >
          > This might be a tad late - but I have found some relief from itch by vacuming
          > my arms and legs with my shop vac! Steve Anderson
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
          >
          > a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
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          > jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
          >
          > a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
          > http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947073769
          >
          > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
          > -- http://www.egroups.com/docvault/bolger/?m=1

          --
          Richard
          Spelling|richard@...|http://www.spellingbusiness.com
          SBE Communications, Business Solutions for the next Millennium and
          Beyond!
          Boat building projects: http://www.spellingbusiness.com/boats/
        • KF4call@aol.com
          ... bottom ... to ... Avoiding the itch from FG sanding is one of the reasons I am considering using Xynole on the bottom of my Oldshoe. That, and the praise
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 5, 2000
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            > << The writer mentions this misery of sanding glass and the itch that keeps
            > on itching. I sanded off the glob and uneeven areas on my Windsprint
            bottom
            > last weekend and luckily remembered my Dad's old antidote to working with
            > fiberglass insulation-pour and rub in white vinegar to any parts of the bod
            > that got exposed while showering. This won't kill the itch, but it seems
            to
            > go away much faster.
            > >>


            Avoiding the itch from FG sanding is one of the reasons I am considering
            using Xynole on the bottom of my Oldshoe. That, and the praise it gets from
            Reul Parker for abrasion resistance. I am also thinking that, as I go
            along, I will make choices with an eye toward the healthy alternatives. That
            is why I will use wood flour for thickening epoxy, rather than some of the
            finer synthetic substances that (as I hear others tell it) cannot be coughed
            up out of your lungs and stays forever. Regards- Warren
          • Gregg Shadduck
            ... I try to use a *cabinet scraper* as often as possible to clean up such surfaces... as soon as possible! Gregg Shadduck -- River Access, Mpls. MN -- S/V
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 5, 2000
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              Sounds good, Warren:

              > Avoiding the itch from FG sanding is one of the reasons I am considering
              > using Xynole on the bottom of my Oldshoe. That, and the praise it gets from
              > Reul Parker for abrasion resistance.

              I try to use a *cabinet scraper* as often as possible to clean up such surfaces...
              as soon as possible!

              Gregg Shadduck -- River Access, Mpls. MN -- S/V Surprise, St. Paul, MN
            • Chuck Merrell
              Hello Robert Re your questions, thought I d toss in my two cents. ... the ... Mat really isn t for use with epoxy, although some builders use thin mat for
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 7, 2000
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                Hello Robert

                Re your questions, thought I'd toss in my two cents.

                > Chuck, thank you once again for the archive. I've read through #6 tonight
                > and was absolutely fascinated.
                >
                > A few items that could bear some discussion here:
                >
                > 1. Use of Mat with or without glass cloth: This has intrigued me since
                the
                > guy at FGCI told me that glass gives abrasion resistance, while mat gives
                > lateral stiffness. Since the spec scantlings for all these boats is, er,
                > light, use of mat might have some pluses. What are the minuses?

                Mat really isn't for use with epoxy, although some builders use thin mat for
                surfacing and finishing. Mat is a product that was originally designed for
                use with styrene based resins like polyesters, iso's etc. and usually is
                meant to be used either to build up bulk, act as in interface between layers
                of roving, and next to gelcoat in a female mold. So, the "giving lateral
                stiffness" is pretty much of a non or wrong answer, one of those "hip shots"
                that sales types will give you when they don't know the real answer.

                Glass cloth, mat and woven roven were originally not meant to be used with
                Epoxy. Epoxy was really an afterthought use. Glass cloth, mat and roving
                are all "sized" to work with styrene's. The sizing is a starch based
                product that coats the glass in the finishing process and promotes quick wet
                out. Gougeon Brothers have done research with sizings and came up with
                something called amine-saline coating that helps with epoxy in the wetting
                out process, but in general the weave of glass cloth at least up to ten or
                twelve ounce is easy to wet out with epoxy anyway.

                The real reason for using fabric to sheath plywood is to provide abrasion
                resistance, waterproofing, provide a skreed and in some cases where
                desireable add stiffness. Glass cloth adds stiffness and abrasion
                resistance, but is very brittle and has poor dent resistance. The reason
                for this is because glass cloth doesn't stretch much, but boatbuilder's
                epoxy will stretch maybe as much as 5%. So, for the best match, the fabric
                should have a similar modulus. There are some newer fabrics which are
                hands down better in the abrasion department. Many years ago, WoodenBoat
                Magazine ran exhaustive tests and concluded that polypropylene fabric was
                hands down the most effective. They published the results in a
                comprehensive article in the magazine. Bottom line, glass was the poorest
                at standing up to sand blasting with glass beads, while verious
                polypropylene fabrics did the best. Versatex and Dynel were the best and
                provided the best "memory" in denting situations.

                > 2. Phil's discussion of the bottom used on Pointer: three layers of 10oz
                > cloth! even if the resin used was polyester, that would have been one
                thick,
                > hard heavy bottom. Has anyone on the list used multiple sheathing layers
                on
                > any size boat? What are the +/-

                I've often done multiple layers, and the amount and weight just depends on
                how much abrasion resistance is required. Three layers of 10 oz would be
                quite heavy, but not necessarily overkill, depending on the requirements of
                the application.

                > 4. What is this Hull guy doing now? Did he secretly change his name to
                > Craig O'Donnell and move to Maryland? :)

                Nope, interestingly, Dr. Jeff Hull heard about the posting of his old
                Instant Boatbuilder Newsletters on Private Postings and emailed me to renew
                acquaintenance. He's no longer in Corpus Christi, but has moved has
                pediatric practice to Alabama, everybody in his family are doing fine, his
                kids are all almost grown and the oldest is a freshman in college. Ain't
                the internet great?!

                Cheers,

                Chuck

                > Robert & Amy Lundy
                > St. Petersburg, fla.
                > robert@...
                > amy@...

                ***********************************
                CHUCK MERRELL
                MERRELL WATERCRAFT
                P. O. Box 80264
                Seattle, WA 98108-0264
                (206) 764-1298
                Email: chuck@...
                Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
                **********************************
              • Robert N. Lundy
                Thanks Chuck! That s a neat ending to the story. He didn t hold you up for copyright did he? :) Thanks for the info.
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 8, 2000
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                  Thanks Chuck!

                  That's a neat ending to the story. He didn't hold you up for copyright did
                  he? :)

                  Thanks for the info.

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Chuck Merrell [mailto:chuckmerrell@...]
                  > Sent: January 08, 2000 2:20 AM
                  > To: bolger@egroups.com
                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Boatbuilder
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Robert
                  >
                  > Re your questions, thought I'd toss in my two cents.
                  >
                  > > Chuck, thank you once again for the archive. I've read through
                  > #6 tonight
                  > > and was absolutely fascinated.
                  > >
                  > > A few items that could bear some discussion here:
                  > >
                  > > 1. Use of Mat with or without glass cloth: This has intrigued me since
                  > the
                  > > guy at FGCI told me that glass gives abrasion resistance, while
                  > mat gives
                  > > lateral stiffness. Since the spec scantlings for all these
                  > boats is, er,
                  > > light, use of mat might have some pluses. What are the minuses?
                  >
                  > Mat really isn't for use with epoxy, although some builders use
                  > thin mat for
                  > surfacing and finishing. Mat is a product that was originally
                  > designed for
                  > use with styrene based resins like polyesters, iso's etc. and usually is
                  > meant to be used either to build up bulk, act as in interface
                  > between layers
                  > of roving, and next to gelcoat in a female mold. So, the "giving lateral
                  > stiffness" is pretty much of a non or wrong answer, one of those
                  > "hip shots"
                  > that sales types will give you when they don't know the real answer.
                  >
                  > Glass cloth, mat and woven roven were originally not meant to be used with
                  > Epoxy. Epoxy was really an afterthought use. Glass cloth, mat and roving
                  > are all "sized" to work with styrene's. The sizing is a starch based
                  > product that coats the glass in the finishing process and
                  > promotes quick wet
                  > out. Gougeon Brothers have done research with sizings and came up with
                  > something called amine-saline coating that helps with epoxy in the wetting
                  > out process, but in general the weave of glass cloth at least up to ten or
                  > twelve ounce is easy to wet out with epoxy anyway.
                  >
                  > The real reason for using fabric to sheath plywood is to provide abrasion
                  > resistance, waterproofing, provide a skreed and in some cases where
                  > desireable add stiffness. Glass cloth adds stiffness and abrasion
                  > resistance, but is very brittle and has poor dent resistance. The reason
                  > for this is because glass cloth doesn't stretch much, but boatbuilder's
                  > epoxy will stretch maybe as much as 5%. So, for the best match,
                  > the fabric
                  > should have a similar modulus. There are some newer fabrics which are
                  > hands down better in the abrasion department. Many years ago, WoodenBoat
                  > Magazine ran exhaustive tests and concluded that polypropylene fabric was
                  > hands down the most effective. They published the results in a
                  > comprehensive article in the magazine. Bottom line, glass was the poorest
                  > at standing up to sand blasting with glass beads, while verious
                  > polypropylene fabrics did the best. Versatex and Dynel were the best and
                  > provided the best "memory" in denting situations.
                  >
                  > > 2. Phil's discussion of the bottom used on Pointer: three layers of 10oz
                  > > cloth! even if the resin used was polyester, that would have been one
                  > thick,
                  > > hard heavy bottom. Has anyone on the list used multiple
                  > sheathing layers
                  > on
                  > > any size boat? What are the +/-
                  >
                  > I've often done multiple layers, and the amount and weight just depends on
                  > how much abrasion resistance is required. Three layers of 10 oz would be
                  > quite heavy, but not necessarily overkill, depending on the
                  > requirements of
                  > the application.
                  >
                  > > 4. What is this Hull guy doing now? Did he secretly change his name to
                  > > Craig O'Donnell and move to Maryland? :)
                  >
                  > Nope, interestingly, Dr. Jeff Hull heard about the posting of his old
                  > Instant Boatbuilder Newsletters on Private Postings and emailed
                  > me to renew
                  > acquaintenance. He's no longer in Corpus Christi, but has moved has
                  > pediatric practice to Alabama, everybody in his family are doing fine, his

                  > kids are all almost grown and the oldest is a freshman in college. Ain't
                  > the internet great?!
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Chuck
                  >
                  > > Robert & Amy Lundy
                  > > St. Petersburg, fla.
                  > > robert@...
                  > > amy@...
                  >
                  > ***********************************
                  > CHUCK MERRELL
                  > MERRELL WATERCRAFT
                  > P. O. Box 80264
                  > Seattle, WA 98108-0264
                  > (206) 764-1298
                  > Email: chuck@...
                  > Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
                  > **********************************
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > FreeLotto.com is the only internet site to offer three free chances
                  > a day to win $1,000,000.00. We've already had two $1,000,000.00
                  > jackpot winners and thousands of other cash prizes. You could be
                  > a $1,000,000.00 winner tonight!
                  > http://click.egroups.com/1/445/5/_/3457/_/947316038/
                  >
                  > -- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!
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                  >
                  >
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