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Re: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?

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  • thomas dalzell
    White oak is nice stuff, but won t your straw trick yield the same result? It is ring pourous also. I haven t used red oak in a boat either, but I suspect
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
      White oak is nice stuff, but won't your straw trick
      yield the same result? It is ring pourous also. I
      haven't used red oak in a boat either, but I suspect
      that if you coat your sample in epoxy, let it harden,
      and repeat your test, you will get a different result
      ;o).

      If I lived out your way I would use a lot of that S
      spruce and D fir.


      --- pateson@... wrote:

      <HR>
      <html><body>
      <tt>
      Good information all.<BR>
      <BR>
      General Information.<BR>
      Avoid using "Red" Oak in boats.<BR>
      It's cell structure is porous.<BR>
      It Will absorb water.<BR>
      <BR>
      Try this at home.<BR>
      Take a short piece of Red Oak.<BR>
      Put one End in a bowl of water.<BR>
      Blow on the other end.<BR>
      Tiny bubbles.  Pretty cool, but Not what<BR>
      I want on My boat.<BR>
      <BR>
      Wood vs Other.<BR>
      <BR>
      My preference would be wood, probably White Oak.<BR>
      It is relativly cheap, quite strong, and
      available.<BR>
      I think wood just "Goes Better" with wooden
      boats.<BR>
      It can, and has for a long time, been used on
      "Traditional<BR>
      Boats".<BR>
      I can live with the trade of "Bulk for
      Strenght".<BR>
      Wood is also less "Dammaging" to spars,
      topside, and sails,<BR>
      and heads,(mine, not the other kind) when it bangs
      around.<BR>
      Wood must be used "Properly". It takes more
      attention.<BR>
      One must pay attention to "Grain direction".
      Metal's got none.<BR>
      For Me, working with wood is easier that "Casting
      Metal".<BR>
      But, I make My living as a "Woodworker".<BR>
      <BR>
      If Metal is the choice, then why stop with
      aluminum?<BR>
      Wouldn't titanium or some other exotic metal be
      "Stronger"?<BR>
      Turn your new Golf Driver into a
      "Block".<BR>
      <BR>
      "Plastics"<BR>
      I wish I had listen to that guy in "The
      Graduate".<BR>
      Really are wonderful materials, used properly.<BR>
      I use them, and like it. <BR>
      <BR>
      "I also use power tools." (There, I said
      it.)<BR>
      <BR>
      Not an attempt at any "Argument", just a
      preference.<BR>
      <BR>
      It is nice to know the pros and cons, and to be able
      <BR>
      to make informed choices.<BR>
      <BR>
      All you folks really Are a Wealth of experience and
      knowlege.<BR>
      I hope we save each other from making regretable
      mistakes.<BR>
      <BR>
      Not many "Wooden Blocks" on America's Cup
      Boats.<BR>
      Come to think of it, not much "Wood". 
      They're nice.<BR>
      <BR>
      We all do, and use, what we want in the end,
      anyway.<BR>
      <BR>
      Boy, I wish I hadn't built that first boat with
      the<BR>
      "Free" Alder I found at that cabinet shop.
      <BR>
      Don't do That too.  Bad Idea!<BR>
      (It Was such a "Nice" boat too.)<BR>
      <BR>
      Pat Patteson<BR>
      Still learning.<BR>
      Molalla, Oregon<BR>
      <BR>
      <BR>
      <BR>
      <BR>
      <BR>
      <BR>
      --- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:<BR>
      > How thick are your hardwood shells?<BR>
      > <BR>
      > Red Oak:<BR>
      > <a
      href="http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?">http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?</a><BR>
      bassnum=PTSAV&group=General<BR>
      > shows a tensile strength of 798psi<BR>
      > <BR>
      > A common cast aluminum alloy:<BR>
      > <a
      href="http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?">http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?</a><BR>
      > bassnum=MAC320&group=General<BR>
      > tensile strength of 14,069psi<BR>
      > <BR>
      > So, you should be able to make the cheeks quite a
      bit thinner if <BR>
      made <BR>
      > of al. Say, for a breaking strength of 2000 lb,
      with a 4x safety <BR>
      > margin, you would only need about 1/2" cross
      sectional area on your <BR>
      > aluminum cheaks, but would need a cross sectional
      area of 10 sq <BR>
      > inches out of red oak...<BR>
      > <BR>
      > My math probably screwed up, but good enough for
      comparisons.<BR>
      > <BR>
      > --- In bolger@y..., jhkohnen@b... wrote:<BR>
      > > Richard-<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > Why aluminum bodies? I've got some strapless
      wooden blocks on <BR>
      > Pickle, and<BR>
      > > while they're far from perfect in other
      respects the hardwood <BR>
      > shells handle<BR>
      > > the strains of a small boat just fine with
      no metal straps or <BR>
      rope <BR>
      > strops,<BR>
      > > and it's much nicer to have chunks of wood
      rattling around than <BR>
      > lumps of<BR>
      > > metal. Here's a crude sketch of what my
      blocks look like, pretty <BR>
      > simple<BR>
      > > except for the mortising for the nubbins on
      the becket. Frankly, <BR>
      if <BR>
      > I was<BR>
      > > replacing them (and I may one of these days)
      I'd lose the bronze <BR>
      > becket and<BR>
      > > make a solid wood shell and use a rope
      strop. BTW, small scraps <BR>
      of <BR>
      > harwood<BR>
      > > suitable for small boat block shells can
      often be found for <BR>
      peanuts <BR>
      > at<BR>
      > > hardwood dealers or cabinet shops.<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > <a
      href="http://www.boat-links.com/images/Block.gif">http://www.boat-links.com/images/Block.gif</a><BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:35:52 -0000, Richard
      Spelling wrote:<BR>
      > > > I'm making my own, just got in the
      delrin for the sheaves from <BR>
      > > > McMaster-Carr. Will cast the bodies out
      of aluminum, with <BR>
      > stainless <BR>
      > > > pins, and maybe attachemnt points.
      Corrosion may eventual seize <BR>
      > the <BR>
      > > > stainless to the aluminum, but I don't
      plan to ever take them <BR>
      > appart, <BR>
      > > > and the only moving part will be the
      delrin sheave, which will <BR>
      > turn <BR>
      > > > on stainless pins.<BR>
      > > > <BR>
      > > > I plan on casting the bodies with sand
      cores, so they are one <BR>
      > solid <BR>
      > > > piece, should be an interesting winter
      project.<BR>
      > > <BR>
      > > -- <BR>
      >
      >                         
      John <jkohnen@b...><BR>
      >
      >                          
      <a
      href="http://www.boat-links.com/">http://www.boat-links.com/</a><BR>
      > >   I care not for a man's religion
      whose dog or cat are not the <BR>
      > better for it.<BR>
      >
      >                               
      <Abraham Lincoln><BR>
      <BR>
      </tt>

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    • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
      I don t know about replacement sheaves from a block manufacturer, but sheaves can be bought alone from some places for less than the cost of a block, or
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
        I don't know about "replacement" sheaves from a block manufacturer, but
        sheaves can be bought alone from some places for less than the cost of a
        block, or made. If you make your blocks out of aluminum you've got to find
        sheaves too. <g> I don't know what my strategy will be when I replace
        Pickle's blocks, I could use my existing sheaves, though they're just a
        tad small for the mainsheets, and bore them out for delrin sleeves or some
        other better bearing, right now their bronze or brass on bronze or brass
        pins.

        On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:46:57 -0000, Peter wrote:
        > I have never looked into this. Would you save a lot if you made your
        > own hardwood shells and bought "replacement" sheaves?
        >
        > Peter

        --
        John <jkohnen@...>
        http://www.boat-links.com/
        Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet two conditions:
        1. He is a Greek
        2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
      • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
        Richard- The shells are only about 3/8 thick mahogany. I can t argue with your math, but do you really need that much strength for your application? If I had
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
          Richard-

          The shells are only about 3/8" thick mahogany. I can't argue with your
          math, but do you really need that much strength for your application? If I
          had 500 lbs working on my sheet blocks it'd yank my arm off! <g> And even
          the turning blocks for my snotter and tack downhaul shouldn't see anywhere
          near that much load. Of course Pickle's a small boat. If you do need the
          strength, you could make bronze or stainless strapped, wood shell blocks.
          The metal would take all the load, the wood would just contain the rope and
          make a nicer surface to have rattling around. Also you'd get to do some
          pleasant woodworking and a little metal drilling and filing instead of hot,
          dirty foundry work. Or go ahead and get hot and dirty, I'm not trying to
          dissuade you, we all have diferent ideas of fun. <g> I was just curious
          about your choice of materials.

          BTW, what are you going to use the blocks for?

          On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:28:05 -0000, Richard Spelling wrote:
          > How thick are your hardwood shells?
          >
          > Red Oak:
          > http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=PTSAV&group=General
          > shows a tensile strength of 798psi
          >
          > A common cast aluminum alloy:
          > http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?
          > bassnum=MAC320&group=General
          > tensile strength of 14,069psi
          >
          > So, you should be able to make the cheeks quite a bit thinner if made
          > of al. Say, for a breaking strength of 2000 lb, with a 4x safety
          > margin, you would only need about 1/2" cross sectional area on your
          > aluminum cheaks, but would need a cross sectional area of 10 sq
          > inches out of red oak...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          http://www.boat-links.com/
          The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you can be
          pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying virtues.
          <Elizabeth Taylor>
        • richard@spellingbusiness.com
          Common Sense Boats sells RaceLite nylon sheaves for a dollar or two. Pretty decent price, if you can get him to answer his email and if the website happens to
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2001
            Common Sense Boats sells RaceLite nylon sheaves for a dollar or two.
            Pretty decent price, if you can get him to answer his email and if
            the website happens to be working...

            Paided $26 for four feet of black delrin rod from McMaster, enough to
            make 45 or so sheaves. I figure the delrin will turn on a SS pin with
            no problems and no bearings, and I'll make the body out of aluminum.

            No reason you couldn't make the body out of wood, with maybe some
            strategic placement of glass and epoxy. It would certainly be
            prettier, but I have the capability to do it out of aluminum, and
            want the excuse to do some more core work, so I'm going to do it that
            way.

            --- In bolger@y..., jhkohnen@b... wrote:
            > I don't know about "replacement" sheaves from a block manufacturer,
            but
            > sheaves can be bought alone from some places for less than the cost
            of a
            > block, or made. If you make your blocks out of aluminum you've got
            to find
            > sheaves too. <g> I don't know what my strategy will be when I
            replace
            > Pickle's blocks, I could use my existing sheaves, though they're
            just a
            > tad small for the mainsheets, and bore them out for delrin sleeves
            or some
            > other better bearing, right now their bronze or brass on bronze or
            brass
            > pins.
            >
            > On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:46:57 -0000, Peter wrote:
            > > I have never looked into this. Would you save a lot if you made
            your
            > > own hardwood shells and bought "replacement" sheaves?
            > >
            > > Peter
            >
            > --
            > John <jkohnen@b...>
            > http://www.boat-links.com/
            > Nobody ought to wear a Greek fisherman's hat unless they meet two
            conditions:
            > 1. He is a Greek
            > 2. He is a Fisherman <Roy Blount Jr.>
          • richard@spellingbusiness.com
            Wood will work. Stainless straps with wood will work even better. I m making all the block for the Chebacco light cruiser. Compounds on gaff, two blocks on
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2001
              Wood will work. Stainless straps with wood will work even better.

              I'm making all the block for the Chebacco light cruiser. Compounds on
              gaff, two blocks on mast, turning blocks for halyards and reefing
              lines, etc. Plan to lead all the lines to the cockpit so I can hoist
              and reef from the dodger.

              --- In bolger@y..., jhkohnen@b... wrote:
              > Richard-
              >
              > The shells are only about 3/8" thick mahogany. I can't argue with
              your
              > math, but do you really need that much strength for your
              application? If I
              > had 500 lbs working on my sheet blocks it'd yank my arm off! <g>
              And even
              > the turning blocks for my snotter and tack downhaul shouldn't see
              anywhere
              > near that much load. Of course Pickle's a small boat. If you do
              need the
              > strength, you could make bronze or stainless strapped, wood shell
              blocks.
              > The metal would take all the load, the wood would just contain the
              rope and
              > make a nicer surface to have rattling around. Also you'd get to do
              some
              > pleasant woodworking and a little metal drilling and filing instead
              of hot,
              > dirty foundry work. Or go ahead and get hot and dirty, I'm not
              trying to
              > dissuade you, we all have diferent ideas of fun. <g> I was just
              curious
              > about your choice of materials.
              >
              > BTW, what are you going to use the blocks for?
              >
              > On Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:28:05 -0000, Richard Spelling wrote:
              > > How thick are your hardwood shells?
              > >
              > > Red Oak:
              > > http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?
              bassnum=PTSAV&group=General
              > > shows a tensile strength of 798psi
              > >
              > > A common cast aluminum alloy:
              > > http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?
              > > bassnum=MAC320&group=General
              > > tensile strength of 14,069psi
              > >
              > > So, you should be able to make the cheeks quite a bit thinner if
              made
              > > of al. Say, for a breaking strength of 2000 lb, with a 4x safety
              > > margin, you would only need about 1/2" cross sectional area on
              your
              > > aluminum cheaks, but would need a cross sectional area of 10 sq
              > > inches out of red oak...
              >
              > --
              > John <jkohnen@b...>
              > http://www.boat-links.com/
              > The problem with people who have no vices is that generally you
              can be
              > pretty sure they're going to have some pretty annoying
              virtues.
              > <Elizabeth Taylor>
            • Chris Crandall
              ... Chris Crandall crandall@ukans.edu (785) 864-4131 Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045 I have data convincingly
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 2, 2001
                On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, thomas dalzell wrote:

                > White oak is nice stuff, but won't your straw trick
                > yield the same result? It is ring pourous also. I
                > haven't used red oak in a boat either, but I suspect
                > that if you coat your sample in epoxy, let it harden,
                > and repeat your test, you will get a different result
                > ;o).
                >
                > If I lived out your way I would use a lot of that S
                > spruce and D fir.
                >
                >
                > --- pateson@... wrote:
                >
                > <HR>
                > <html><body>
                > <tt>
                > Good information all.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > General Information.<BR>
                > Avoid using "Red" Oak in boats.<BR>
                > It's cell structure is porous.<BR>
                > It Will absorb water.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Try this at home.<BR>
                > Take a short piece of Red Oak.<BR>
                > Put one End in a bowl of water.<BR>
                > Blow on the other end.<BR>
                > Tiny bubbles.  Pretty cool, but Not what<BR>
                > I want on My boat.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Wood vs Other.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > My preference would be wood, probably White Oak.<BR>
                > It is relativly cheap, quite strong, and
                > available.<BR>
                > I think wood just "Goes Better" with wooden
                > boats.<BR>
                > It can, and has for a long time, been used on
                > "Traditional<BR>
                > Boats".<BR>
                > I can live with the trade of "Bulk for
                > Strenght".<BR>
                > Wood is also less "Dammaging" to spars,
                > topside, and sails,<BR>
                > and heads,(mine, not the other kind) when it bangs
                > around.<BR>
                > Wood must be used "Properly". It takes more
                > attention.<BR>
                > One must pay attention to "Grain direction".
                > Metal's got none.<BR>
                > For Me, working with wood is easier that "Casting
                > Metal".<BR>
                > But, I make My living as a "Woodworker".<BR>
                > <BR>
                > If Metal is the choice, then why stop with
                > aluminum?<BR>
                > Wouldn't titanium or some other exotic metal be
                > "Stronger"?<BR>
                > Turn your new Golf Driver into a
                > "Block".<BR>
                > <BR>
                > "Plastics"<BR>
                > I wish I had listen to that guy in "The
                > Graduate".<BR>
                > Really are wonderful materials, used properly.<BR>
                > I use them, and like it. <BR>
                > <BR>
                > "I also use power tools." (There, I said
                > it.)<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Not an attempt at any "Argument", just a
                > preference.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > It is nice to know the pros and cons, and to be able
                > <BR>
                > to make informed choices.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > All you folks really Are a Wealth of experience and
                > knowlege.<BR>
                > I hope we save each other from making regretable
                > mistakes.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Not many "Wooden Blocks" on America's Cup
                > Boats.<BR>
                > Come to think of it, not much "Wood". 
                > They're nice.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > We all do, and use, what we want in the end,
                > anyway.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Boy, I wish I hadn't built that first boat with
                > the<BR>
                > "Free" Alder I found at that cabinet shop.
                > <BR>
                > Don't do That too.  Bad Idea!<BR>
                > (It Was such a "Nice" boat too.)<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Pat Patteson<BR>
                > Still learning.<BR>
                > Molalla, Oregon<BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > --- In bolger@y..., richard@s... wrote:<BR>
                > > How thick are your hardwood shells?<BR>
                > > <BR>
                > > Red Oak:<BR>
                > > <a
                > href="http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?">http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?</a><BR>
                > bassnum=PTSAV&group=General<BR>
                > > shows a tensile strength of 798psi<BR>
                > > <BR>
                > > A common cast aluminum alloy:<BR>
                > > <a
                > href="http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?">http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp?</a><BR>
                > > bassnum=MAC320&group=General<BR>
                > > tensile strength of 14,069psi<BR>
                > > <BR>
                > > So, you should be able to make the cheeks quite a
                > bit thinner if <BR>
                > made <BR>
                > > of al. Say, for a breaking strength of 2000 lb,
                > with a 4x safety <BR>
                > > margin, you would only need about 1/2" cross
                > sectional area on your <BR>
                > > aluminum cheaks, but would need a cross sectional
                > area of 10 sq <BR>
                > > inches out of red oak...<BR>
                > > <BR>
                > > My math probably screwed up, but good enough for
                > comparisons.<BR>
                > > <BR>
                > > --- In bolger@y..., jhkohnen@b... wrote:<BR>
                > > > Richard-<BR>
                > > > <BR>
                > > > Why aluminum bodies? I've got some strapless
                > wooden blocks on <BR>
                > > Pickle, and<BR>
                > > > while they're far from perfect in other
                > respects the hardwood <BR>
                > > shells handle<BR>
                > > > the strains of a small boat just fine with
                > no metal straps or <BR>
                > rope <BR>
                > > strops,<BR>
                > > > and it's much nicer to have chunks of wood
                > rattling around than <BR>
                > > lumps of<BR>
                > > > metal. Here's a crude sketch of what my
                > blocks look like, pretty <BR>
                > > simple<BR>
                > > > except for the mortising for the nubbins on
                > the becket. Frankly, <BR>
                > if <BR>
                > > I was<BR>
                > > > replacing them (and I may one of these days)
                > I'd lose the bronze <BR>
                > > becket and<BR>
                > > > make a solid wood shell and use a rope
                > strop. BTW, small scraps <BR>
                > of <BR>
                > > harwood<BR>
                > > > suitable for small boat block shells can
                > often be found for <BR>
                > peanuts <BR>
                > > at<BR>
                > > > hardwood dealers or cabinet shops.<BR>
                > > > <BR>
                > > > <a
                > href="http://www.boat-links.com/images/Block.gif">http://www.boat-links.com/images/Block.gif</a><BR>
                > > > <BR>
                > > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:35:52 -0000, Richard
                > Spelling wrote:<BR>
                > > > > I'm making my own, just got in the
                > delrin for the sheaves from <BR>
                > > > > McMaster-Carr. Will cast the bodies out
                > of aluminum, with <BR>
                > > stainless <BR>
                > > > > pins, and maybe attachemnt points.
                > Corrosion may eventual seize <BR>
                > > the <BR>
                > > > > stainless to the aluminum, but I don't
                > plan to ever take them <BR>
                > > appart, <BR>
                > > > > and the only moving part will be the
                > delrin sheave, which will <BR>
                > > turn <BR>
                > > > > on stainless pins.<BR>
                > > > > <BR>
                > > > > I plan on casting the bodies with sand
                > cores, so they are one <BR>
                > > solid <BR>
                > > > > piece, should be an interesting winter
                > project.<BR>
                > > > <BR>
                > > > -- <BR>
                > >
                > >                         
                > John <jkohnen@b...><BR>
                > >
                > >                          
                > <a
                > href="http://www.boat-links.com/">http://www.boat-links.com/</a><BR>
                > > >   I care not for a man's religion
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                Chris Crandall crandall@... (785) 864-4131
                Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
                I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
              • pateson@colton.com
                White Oak has a closed cell structure. No tiny bubbles, boo, but no water in the wood either. That is one of the Major differences between the two. You could
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 2, 2001
                  White Oak has a closed cell structure.
                  No tiny bubbles, boo, but no water in the wood either.
                  That is one of the Major differences between the two.

                  You could "Coat" Red Oak with Epoxy, but would you
                  have a "Wooden Block" or a "Red Oak Cored Epoxy Block"?

                  The white oak is inherently water resistant, so if
                  you were to get a Chip in the Epoxy, it would not
                  absorb water the way Red Oak would.

                  Doug Fir Is Great for boat building.
                  Light, relatively water resistant, but not nearly
                  as strong as White oak.
                  Unfortunately, Vertical Grain Old Growth Doug Fir,
                  is More Expensive today than Red or White Oak.

                  The Reason for that is simple.
                  Not to get too Political, but, part of the "Spotted Owl vs.
                  Hard Working Loggers", argument, that gets left out,
                  is that there just Aren't many 400 year old Douglas Fir Trees Left.
                  Estimates are 2-10% of what once was.
                  And fewer today than yesterday. Going, going, …..
                  Weyerhouser, "Georgia" Pacific, "Louisiana" Pacific,
                  Crown Z, and the Power Pole company that moved our
                  family to Oregon when I was 3 in 1952, did not send
                  all their People out to Oregon because it is a nice
                  place to raise a family. It is, but they All came
                  here because there were "Endless Forests" of 400+
                  year old Douglas Fir Trees.
                  Most of those companies came from where they had
                  already cut most of the "Endless Forest" somewhere else.
                  They came, they cut, they left, to find other "Endless Forests".
                  They actually Moved entire Saw Mills, part by part,
                  from Oregon, to South America and Siberia.
                  The Pole Plant My Dad ran Closed in 1975.
                  Way before the "Spotted Owl" thing, because Most
                  of the 150 foot old growth poles were gone, even then,
                  or, too expensive to exploit.
                  Many of the Timber companies try to blame the
                  "Spotted Owl" and "Environmentalist Tree huggers", for the
                  demise of the "Timber Industry" in Oregon, and the loss of
                  thousands of jobs.
                  Sometimes, they call those who try to protect the few remaining
                  Habitats, "Eco-terrorists". (That should "Sell" even better now.)
                  There still are to be a few, mostly young, longhaired types,
                  (like I was, when I had hair), that put their lives on
                  the line to try to "Save" the few habitats left. They have
                  been pretty much "Marginalized", and the cutting continues to
                  this day, as the Corporations continue to cut the last of the last.
                  It is their last ditch effort to cut the
                  Few remaining Old Growth Douglas Fir trees.
                  The Federal Government has, and continues to, lose millions of
                  dollars every year in it's "Timber Sales" of the "last of the last"
                  on "Federal Lands".
                  "Federal" does Not mean "Protected". In fact it has actually always
                  been the other way around. The Federal Government has always had,
                  as it's number one objective, to "Get the Cut Out".
                  The Fact of the matter is that The Timber Companies did their jobs
                  very well.
                  Nearly All the Big Trees are Gone. Many people that come to Oregon
                  don't even notice. There are still Lots of Big Trees, but if you
                  have never seen a "True Old Growth Forest", you literally don't know
                  what is missing.
                  The prices for the remaining Old Growth have skyrocketed,
                  and, although not as high as it was a few years ago, still
                  makes it very profitable for the Big companies to try
                  to get Every Tree they can. Several Thousand dollars for a Single
                  Tree, for some of the Really Big ones.
                  Along with the Old Growth, much of the Habitat has also been
                  destroyed.
                  Western Oregon is truly a "Rain Forest", (I have ferns on my place
                  that are Taller than I am) that once had as much biodiversity as
                  any "Rainforest" in the World
                  Most of that too, is gone.
                  Much of the "Old Growth did not go into "Quality Construction",
                  "Housing", or "Construction" of any kind.
                  It was "Chipped" for Paper.
                  Some of the timber companies have "Replanted" the
                  areas, but those trees have proved to be not nearly
                  the quality of the originals.
                  They were developed to be fast growing, but many are disease
                  prone, and Must be cut after as little as 50-60 years.
                  The "Quality" of the lumber from a "Tree Farm" does not
                  even come close to the 400 year old trees.
                  Douglas fir "Marine Grade Plywood" has gone from "Very Good"
                  to "Crap".

                  It still takes 400 years to grow a 400-year-old Fir Tree.
                  The genetics of the trees has also changed, and the New ones
                  will not live that long.
                  So, the only place there may be "Old Growth Habitat" again is
                  where the little still remains.

                  As much as "Big Timber" would have people believe,
                  "Old Growth Douglas Fir Trees" are Not just "Another
                  Crop like Corn". (And many of us know what has happened
                  to even the corn crop).

                  Sitka Spruce.
                  Even worse. They Are Gone.
                  Mostly during WW II. Many for Airplane Parts.

                  Sorry for the "Rant". I think I pulled my own string.

                  I am pretty close to it, but I can "See the forests for the trees".

                  Pat Patteson
                  Molalla, "Milltown" Oregon



                  (Oh Boy! Did I miss anything, John?)
                • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                  _Somebody_ sure pulled your string Pat! A lot of the replanted fir trees never even make it to 50-60 years, if they can get a couple of 2x4s out of them
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 3, 2001
                    _Somebody_ sure pulled your string Pat! <g>

                    A lot of the replanted fir trees never even make it to 50-60 years, if they
                    can get a couple of 2x4s out of them they cut 'em. :o( What do they call
                    that when a corner of a board is rounded off because it's the outside of a
                    tree? wain? Anyway, try finding a 2x4 in the #2 or better pile at the
                    lumberyard without it. 100% of the "utility" 2x4s have that as one of the
                    defects, usually two corners when they're in that pile.

                    Some knowledgable folk think that some of the rain forests of the northwest
                    are remnants of the last ice age that managed to survive only because they
                    created their own cool, moist climate. Cut them down wholesale and they'll
                    never be able to rejuvenate.

                    Although there has been some enlightenment in recent years, for generations
                    the only trees replanted were Douglas firs. Aside from the ill effects of
                    monoculture plantations on the soil and habitat, it's also meant that
                    useful woods like cedars are getting to be in short supply.

                    Spruce? It was WW I when the army came in and mined all the good Sitka
                    spruce in Oregon. Any reforestation was with Doug fir.

                    Old growth Doug fir is a wondeful wood. It's really tragic how it's been
                    squandered over the years. I've heard tell about prime fir being used for
                    pallets in WW II. The story may be apocryphal, but it sounds likely given
                    the way war can warp a country's mentality-- seems some procurement agent
                    wanted to do his part for the war effort by providing the _very best_
                    pallets he could, so he specified the highest grade of lumber for them,
                    made him feel more patriotic no doubt... The there were all those wooden
                    steamships and schooners built for WW I, and never used for the war effort
                    or much of anything else. Most were abandoned or burned within a few years
                    of the war's end.

                    On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 22:43:58 -0000, Pat Pateson ranted:
                    > ...
                    > Unfortunately, Vertical Grain Old Growth Doug Fir,
                    > is More Expensive today than Red or White Oak.
                    >
                    > The Reason for that is simple.
                    > ...
                    > Some of the timber companies have "Replanted" the
                    > areas, but those trees have proved to be not nearly
                    > the quality of the originals.
                    > They were developed to be fast growing, but many are disease
                    > prone, and Must be cut after as little as 50-60 years.
                    > The "Quality" of the lumber from a "Tree Farm" does not
                    > even come close to the 400 year old trees.
                    > Douglas fir "Marine Grade Plywood" has gone from "Very Good"
                    > to "Crap".
                    > ...
                    > Sitka Spruce.
                    > Even worse. They Are Gone.
                    > Mostly during WW II. Many for Airplane Parts.
                    > ...
                    > (Oh Boy! Did I miss anything, John?)

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    http://www.boat-links.com/
                    One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell by
                    Dickens without laughing. <Oscar Wilde>
                  • thomas dalzell
                    Speaking of WWII, think about all the wood that must have ended up in europe in the form of crating. Every heavy object, gun, bomb, etc... would have been
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 4, 2001
                      Speaking of WWII, think about all the wood that must
                      have ended up in europe in the form of crating. Every
                      heavy object, gun, bomb, etc... would have been crated
                      up and sent over there.

                      Even today heavier pallets can have the runners made
                      of Oak. A friend of mine scored tons of this stuff
                      from an neighbouring industrial site early in his
                      cabinet carreer, that was '85. In the forties I bet
                      they cut that stuff down at the drop of a hat.

                      After all, they pulp first growth trees to publish
                      books. For that mater I was going through upper NY
                      state last summer, and got into a discusion of local
                      lumbering practices. Seems they cut the local maple
                      forests on private land for income. Best Use: pulp,
                      and fuel for electricity generation. This really
                      slayed me, because the cost of maple lumber localy has
                      soared higher than cherry and oak.


                      "Old growth Doug fir is a wondeful wood. It's really
                      tragic how it's been
                      squandered over the years. I've heard tell about prime
                      fir being used for
                      pallets in WW II. The story may be apocryphal, but it
                      sounds likely given
                      the way war can warp a country's mentality-- seems
                      some procurement agent
                      wanted to do his part for the war effort by providing
                      the _very best_
                      pallets he could, so he specified the highest grade of
                      lumber for them,
                      made him feel more patriotic no doubt... The there
                      were all those wooden
                      steamships and schooners built for WW I, and never
                      used for the war effort
                      or much of anything else. Most were abandoned or
                      burned within a few years
                      of the war's end."

                      _______________________________________________________
                      Build your own website for free and in minutes at http://ca.geocities.com
                    • Charles Wilson
                      Luke, I would love to see that but the link does not work for me. Charles If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation ... From:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                        Luke,

                        I would love to see that but the link does not work for me.

                        Charles


                        If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <lukecurran@...>
                        To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:19 AM
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?


                        > If this link has been posted I've missed it;
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > http://catalogue.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • lukecurran@hotmail.com
                        Sorry, I hope I get it right this time! http://catalog.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm ... like ... Gloucester, MA, ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                          Sorry, I hope I get it right this time!


                          http://catalog.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm


                          --- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
                          > Luke,
                          >
                          > I would love to see that but the link does not work for me.
                          >
                          > Charles
                          >
                          >
                          > If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: <lukecurran@h...>
                          > To: <bolger@y...>
                          > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:19 AM
                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?
                          >
                          >
                          > > If this link has been posted I've missed it;
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > http://catalogue.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Bolger rules!!!
                          > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                          > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
                          like
                          > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                          Gloucester, MA,
                          > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                        • lukecurran@hotmail.com
                          Charles You might be interested in the (non-bolger) page on tradional boats I found the link - lots of tips. http://catalog.com/bobpone/shopbuilding.htm
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                            Charles

                            You might be interested in the (non-bolger) page on tradional boats I
                            found the link - lots of tips.


                            http://catalog.com/bobpone/shopbuilding.htm



                            --- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
                            > Luke,
                            >
                            > I would love to see that but the link does not work for me.
                            >
                            > Charles
                            >
                            >
                          • Charles Wilson
                            Luke, Thanks a lot the link now works and I kinda like the idea. Will also look at the rest as you suggest. Charles If you keep heading south you will
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                              Luke,

                              Thanks a lot the link now works and I kinda like the idea.

                              Will also look at the rest as you suggest.

                              Charles


                              If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <lukecurran@...>
                              To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:42 PM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?


                              > Charles
                              >
                              > You might be interested in the (non-bolger) page on tradional boats I
                              > found the link - lots of tips.
                              >
                              >
                              > http://catalog.com/bobpone/shopbuilding.htm
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
                              > > Luke,
                              > >
                              > > I would love to see that but the link does not work for me.
                              > >
                              > > Charles
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                              > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                              > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                              01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Harry James
                              Great site, it was exactly what I was looking for. Home made blocks, by a guy who thinks production and good quality, lets get it built and get on the water.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                                Great site, it was exactly what I was looking for. Home made blocks, by a guy who thinks production
                                and good quality, lets get it built and get on the water. I am interested in building blocks rather
                                than buying because of the incredible expense of $$Marine$$ hardware. I didn't want to handcraft each
                                one though. Thanks to this guys site and Richard's, recommendation of mcmaster site I have enough to
                                come up with something on my own for mass production.

                                HJ

                                lukecurran@... wrote:

                                > If this link has been posted I've missed it;
                                >
                                > http://catalogue.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm
                                >
                              • Charles Wilson
                                Thanks Luke, now I think I may attempt to build some blocks instead of hibernating. Blocks, hibernation? If I speak to you again before the spring I will be
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
                                  Thanks Luke, now I think I may attempt to build some blocks instead of
                                  hibernating. Blocks, hibernation?
                                  If I speak to you again before the spring I will be making blocks,
                                  otherwise.................................

                                  Charlessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


                                  If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: <lukecurran@...>
                                  To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:05 PM
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?


                                  > Sorry, I hope I get it right this time!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://catalog.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@y..., "Charles Wilson" <wilson.c@b...> wrote:
                                  > > Luke,
                                  > >
                                  > > I would love to see that but the link does not work for me.
                                  > >
                                  > > Charles
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > If you keep heading south you will eventually reach civilisation
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: <lukecurran@h...>
                                  > > To: <bolger@y...>
                                  > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:19 AM
                                  > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Block Parts?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > If this link has been posted I've missed it;
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > http://catalogue.com/bobpone/plywoodblocks.htm
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > > > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                                  > > > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you
                                  > like
                                  > > > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
                                  > Gloucester, MA,
                                  > > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@y...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                                  > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                                  > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                                  > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                  01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
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