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Re: [bolger] Why not a Dory?

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  • Chris Crandall
    ... They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner. That s the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the mother
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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      On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 StepHydro@... wrote:
      > As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me
      > for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
      > loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.

      They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
      That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
      mother of all the current dories.
    • James Pope
      ... In our greed for more and more fish, we have all but eliminated the great shoals of fish whose presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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        Chris Crandall wrote:

        > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 StepHydro@... wrote:
        > > As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me
        > > for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
        > > loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.
        >
        > They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
        > That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
        > mother of all the current dories.

        > And with all that flare, the more fish you pile into them, the better.

        In our greed for more and more fish, we have all but eliminated the great shoals of fish whose
        presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited hooks every few feet for the line's length
        a useful way to harvest the sea's bounty. That, basically, was the kind of fishing done from dories
        out on the banks. Handlining it was called and its gone. Commercial fishermen today may have one dory
        on board as a traditional style lifeboat, racked up on top of the wheelhouse or just aft of it. Of
        course, with much grumbling about the cost, they will also have a real inflatable life raft.

        Modified far enough they can become fair sailboats. Modified far enough they can become useful power
        boats, I once owned a power dory with a Ford model A engine. And modified far enough they become
        something else entirely.
        PCB has shown us how neat that something else can be.
        Jim

        >
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
        > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • pateson@colton.com
        You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-; Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has to say about that Greed Rant Well said by both of you. A dory was
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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          You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;

          Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
          to say about that "Greed Rant"

          Well said by both of you.
          A dory was originaly a work boat,
          and was (and is)a wonderful design.
          With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
          Perfectly suited for it's use.
          Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
          from the plank canoe.
          I guess the question is, When does a change in the
          very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
          else?
          They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
          power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?

          And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
          As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
          at that point.

          Pat Patteson
          Molalla, Oregon
        • david galvin
          I think that the most appealing aspects of the dory are its strong sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking that dories are simple
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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            I think that the most appealing aspects of the dory are its strong
            sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking
            that dories are simple to build should try to sort out the angles on
            a tombstone transom). Bolger has answered the construction question
            with numerous sharpie designs. Strong sheer and simply construction
            can be found in many boats that are most decidedly not dories. George
            Buehler's V-bottomed chine boats come immediately to mind, as does
            Bolger's own _Burgandy_ (a modified sharpie inspired by
            L.F.Herreshoff's _Rozinante_ design). Most of the recreational
            vessels we call dories, including Bolger's Light Dory, are only
            dories in general outline. Even the Swampscot dories have lost their
            essential "dory nature". I doubt they could easily nest on the deck
            of a Glouchester schooner, and they could certainly not carry a ton
            of dead cod any distance in a seaway.

            Anyone enamored of the idea of a sailing dory should look to the many
            other simply-built boats with strong sheer and with better sailing
            characteristics than a true dory. After all, you could build such a
            boat and call it a "modified" or "semi-" dory. Hardly anyone would
            know the difference, anyway ;o)

            porky

            --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
            > You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;
            >
            > Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
            > to say about that "Greed Rant"
            >
            > Well said by both of you.
            > A dory was originaly a work boat,
            > and was (and is)a wonderful design.
            > With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
            > Perfectly suited for it's use.
            > Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
            > from the plank canoe.
            > I guess the question is, When does a change in the
            > very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
            > else?
            > They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
            > power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?
            >
            > And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
            > As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
            > at that point.
            >
            > Pat Patteson
            > Molalla, Oregon
          • Harry W. James
            As in Oregon Dory or Pacific Dory? They arn t dories, but skiffs with highly flared sides.
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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              As in Oregon Dory or Pacific Dory? They arn't dories, but skiffs with
              highly flared sides.
              >
              > And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
              > As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
              > at that point.
              >
              > Pat Patteson
              > Molalla, Oregon
              >
              >
            • PseudoDion3@aol.com
              I think that this is one of the most interesting threads I ve seen. Saying the word Dory conjures up a whole range of things. It is truly a magical word.
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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                I think that this is one of the most interesting threads I've seen.
                Saying the word "Dory" conjures up a whole range of things. It is
                truly a magical word.
                Now, while I have enjoyed the thread, I have also learned a
                great deal for which I am grateful. I would like to thank those who
                have pointed out to me how Dories have developed in an effort to
                increase stability and sail carrying capacity. As to my comments on
                Sharpies, know only that I had in mind the modified designs Bolger
                has developed over the years. I rarely see folks sailing traditional
                sharpies, but many seem to go for the designs that Bolger and
                Michalak base on traditional sharpie thinking.

                Dennis Marshall
              • JohnSpoering@aol.com
                Hi All - It might be interesting to look at th San Francisco Pelican . A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are available in 12
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
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                  Hi All -
                  It might be interesting to look at th "San Francisco Pelican".
                  A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are
                  available in 12' 16' and 18' lengths Check out the website -
                  http://www.ns.net/~jheidgr/pub/pelican.htm

                  Go to Information about the designer (Bill Short - fastinating)
                  at the bottom of the page then view the photos and other links.

                  It's a very interesting design - a 12 footer has been sailed to
                  Hawaii and there is a lot of class racing going on especially on the west
                  coast.
                  Plans are available at a very reasonable price from Bills wife Murial at :
                  pelicansailboat@...

                  A friend and I are just starting to enlarge this design to 24'
                  and there are several 20'rs now sailing.

                  Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale,
                  Fl


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kwilson800@aol.com
                  According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third sawed off and a new
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
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                    According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory is
                    a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third
                    sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff, OTOH,
                    looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off. Power
                    semi-dories often have completely flat bottoms. If Cartopper is a
                    dory skiff adapted to taped-seam construction, then Diablo is a semi-
                    dory simplified the same way. Gardner's "Dory Book" has a great
                    discussion of the evolution of the dory as a response to the
                    availability of wide machine-sawn boards and inexpensive iron
                    fasteners.

                    --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
                    > And, what the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
                  • stephen@paskey.net
                    Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a semi-dory have a bottom that s squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a dory skiff come to
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
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                      Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
                      squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
                      "dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
                      White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)

                      By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
                      like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
                      anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
                      BWOM.

                      Steve Paskey

                      --- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
                      > According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
                      is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
                      third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
                      OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
                    • Jeff Blunck
                      With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
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                        With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                        Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                        advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                        around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                        the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                        found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                        seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                        way.

                        Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
                        draft and can carry a large load.

                        I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.

                        Jeff

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <stephen@...>
                        To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 2:45 PM
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Why not a Dory?


                        > Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
                        > squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
                        > "dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
                        > White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)
                        >
                        > By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
                        > like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
                        > anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
                        > BWOM.
                        >
                        > Steve Paskey
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
                        > > According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
                        > is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
                        > third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
                        > OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                        > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Harry W. James
                        They go into the breaking sea/surf very well at slow speeds as long as the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never ran down wind in
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
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                          They go into the breaking sea/surf very well at slow speeds as long as
                          the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never
                          ran down wind in real weather, but it tracked absolutely straight in
                          25kts and 6-8 ft swells with whitecaps. You don't go at displacement
                          speeds, you surf or run off the top into the next swell.

                          HJ

                          Jeff Blunck wrote:
                          >
                          > With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                          > Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                          > advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                          > around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                          > the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                          > found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                          > seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                          > way.
                          >
                          > Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
                          > draft and can carry a large load.
                          >
                          > I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.
                          >
                          > Jeff
                          >
                          >
                        • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                          Pacific City dories used to be much more dory-like. Harry V. Sucher took the lines of a modern 20 Oregon surf dory he found at Depoe Bay in 1958, it s a bit
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 3, 2001
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                            Pacific City dories used to be much more dory-like. Harry V. Sucher took
                            the lines of a "modern 20' Oregon surf dory" he found at Depoe Bay in 1958,
                            it's a bit wider (top and bottom) than a bank dory, with quite a bit more
                            rocker, but is doube-ended on the bottom with a tombstone transom. Kinda
                            like a small St. Pierre dory. A friend of mine has an even older version in
                            his yard that's double-ended, with no transom at all. What happened is that
                            powerful outboards got cheaper and the boats started spreading out aft and
                            became planing boats that look a lot like skiffs. The old boats ran at
                            displacement speed and look like they were seaworthy enough to ride out
                            some nasty weather, the new style boats' strategy is to outrun the weather
                            and ride out the storms safely sitting on their trailer while their crews
                            sit in a nice warm tavern and listen to the wind howl. Sounds good to me.
                            <g> With the more accurate weather prediction we have today the strategy
                            works fine, and the faster new boats can fish farther offshore (the dories
                            are day fishermen, they have to get to the fishing grounds and back in the
                            same day).

                            The Oregon dories weren't designed for the Columbia River bar, they
                            developed for fishing off the beach, mostly at Pacific City (SW of
                            Tillamook). They've been used all up and down the coast though, the
                            new-style boats are often used as day fishing boats out of real harbors,
                            never being launched off a beach.

                            On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:56:03 -0600, Jeff wrote:
                            > With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                            > Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                            > advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                            > around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                            > the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                            > found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                            > seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                            > way.
                            > ...

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            http://www.boat-links.com/
                            They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
                            deserve neither liberty nor safety. <Benjamin Franklin>
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