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Why not a Dory?

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  • StepHydro@aol.com
    Dennis M. sez: The question is whether these work boats can be transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie designs, which I also find
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
      Dennis M. sez: >>The question is whether these work boats can be
      transformed to function as pleasure craft primarily. The sharpie
      designs, which I also find beautiful and attractive, have been
      successfully converted. Why not a Dory?>>

      Dennis,

      I can't quite understand the above. Sharpies needed no conversion, they were
      already sailboats. If you mean converted to "yachts", then it is good to
      remember that all that is necessary is to make them less burdensome, they
      still retain their great sailing abilities.

      As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me for it
      :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy loads while
      retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness. No other design has
      ever excelled it in those respects. It's other attraction is it's attraction
      :-)... It is one of the most beautiful marine creations of all time, when
      done well. If it weren't for that fact, no one would ever build one. It is
      really a miserable rowboat as well as being a nearly-impossible sailboat. It
      is difficult to get in and out of, it is easily blown off course when lightly
      loaded, any wind, any course.

      If you are wanting a rowboat, you could hardly do worse with any other type
      *of rowboat*, and if you are wanting a sailboat, you certainly couldn't do
      worse.

      All this said, there is no talking reason with a man who wants a sailing dory
      :-)... so, make sure that you get one with a sail rig that can later be
      adapted to a different (and *real*) sailboat. At least that portion of your
      money won't have been wasted, and you'll have had your fun for a while.

      Cheers/Don Carron
      somewhat tongue-in-cheek
    • Chris Crandall
      ... They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner. That s the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the mother
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
        On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 StepHydro@... wrote:
        > As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me
        > for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
        > loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.

        They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
        That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
        mother of all the current dories.
      • James Pope
        ... In our greed for more and more fish, we have all but eliminated the great shoals of fish whose presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
          Chris Crandall wrote:

          > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 StepHydro@... wrote:
          > > As for the dory, (I may be stretching a bit here, so don't lambaste me
          > > for it :-) the only thing it is really good for is carrying heavy
          > > loads while retaining some degree of rowability and seaworthiness.
          >
          > They are REALLY good at being stacked on the deck of the mother schooner.
          > That's the primary dictate of shape and size for the Grand Banks Dory, the
          > mother of all the current dories.

          > And with all that flare, the more fish you pile into them, the better.

          In our greed for more and more fish, we have all but eliminated the great shoals of fish whose
          presence made the use of tubs of fishing line with baited hooks every few feet for the line's length
          a useful way to harvest the sea's bounty. That, basically, was the kind of fishing done from dories
          out on the banks. Handlining it was called and its gone. Commercial fishermen today may have one dory
          on board as a traditional style lifeboat, racked up on top of the wheelhouse or just aft of it. Of
          course, with much grumbling about the cost, they will also have a real inflatable life raft.

          Modified far enough they can become fair sailboats. Modified far enough they can become useful power
          boats, I once owned a power dory with a Ford model A engine. And modified far enough they become
          something else entirely.
          PCB has shown us how neat that something else can be.
          Jim

          >
          >
          > Bolger rules!!!
          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
          > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • pateson@colton.com
          You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-; Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has to say about that Greed Rant Well said by both of you. A dory was
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
            You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;

            Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
            to say about that "Greed Rant"

            Well said by both of you.
            A dory was originaly a work boat,
            and was (and is)a wonderful design.
            With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
            Perfectly suited for it's use.
            Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
            from the plank canoe.
            I guess the question is, When does a change in the
            very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
            else?
            They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
            power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?

            And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
            As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
            at that point.

            Pat Patteson
            Molalla, Oregon
          • david galvin
            I think that the most appealing aspects of the dory are its strong sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking that dories are simple
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
              I think that the most appealing aspects of the dory are its strong
              sheer and the *apparent* simplicity of construction (anyone thinking
              that dories are simple to build should try to sort out the angles on
              a tombstone transom). Bolger has answered the construction question
              with numerous sharpie designs. Strong sheer and simply construction
              can be found in many boats that are most decidedly not dories. George
              Buehler's V-bottomed chine boats come immediately to mind, as does
              Bolger's own _Burgandy_ (a modified sharpie inspired by
              L.F.Herreshoff's _Rozinante_ design). Most of the recreational
              vessels we call dories, including Bolger's Light Dory, are only
              dories in general outline. Even the Swampscot dories have lost their
              essential "dory nature". I doubt they could easily nest on the deck
              of a Glouchester schooner, and they could certainly not carry a ton
              of dead cod any distance in a seaway.

              Anyone enamored of the idea of a sailing dory should look to the many
              other simply-built boats with strong sheer and with better sailing
              characteristics than a true dory. After all, you could build such a
              boat and call it a "modified" or "semi-" dory. Hardly anyone would
              know the difference, anyway ;o)

              porky

              --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
              > You sound like a Dam Cominist! (-;
              >
              > Just waiting to see what, my frind, Mr. Step has
              > to say about that "Greed Rant"
              >
              > Well said by both of you.
              > A dory was originaly a work boat,
              > and was (and is)a wonderful design.
              > With the accidental "Beautiful Lines"
              > Perfectly suited for it's use.
              > Just a couple of steps up the evolutionary chain
              > from the plank canoe.
              > I guess the question is, When does a change in the
              > very design that makes a "Dory" a "Dory" make it something
              > else?
              > They "Can" be modified into other useful boats, rowing,
              > power or sail, but are they then still a "Dory"?
              >
              > And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
              > As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
              > at that point.
              >
              > Pat Patteson
              > Molalla, Oregon
            • Harry W. James
              As in Oregon Dory or Pacific Dory? They arn t dories, but skiffs with highly flared sides.
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                As in Oregon Dory or Pacific Dory? They arn't dories, but skiffs with
                highly flared sides.
                >
                > And, What the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
                > As in "Semi-planing, Semi-dory". I get confused
                > at that point.
                >
                > Pat Patteson
                > Molalla, Oregon
                >
                >
              • PseudoDion3@aol.com
                I think that this is one of the most interesting threads I ve seen. Saying the word Dory conjures up a whole range of things. It is truly a magical word.
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                  I think that this is one of the most interesting threads I've seen.
                  Saying the word "Dory" conjures up a whole range of things. It is
                  truly a magical word.
                  Now, while I have enjoyed the thread, I have also learned a
                  great deal for which I am grateful. I would like to thank those who
                  have pointed out to me how Dories have developed in an effort to
                  increase stability and sail carrying capacity. As to my comments on
                  Sharpies, know only that I had in mind the modified designs Bolger
                  has developed over the years. I rarely see folks sailing traditional
                  sharpies, but many seem to go for the designs that Bolger and
                  Michalak base on traditional sharpie thinking.

                  Dennis Marshall
                • JohnSpoering@aol.com
                  Hi All - It might be interesting to look at th San Francisco Pelican . A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are available in 12
                  Message 8 of 13 , Oct 1, 2001
                    Hi All -
                    It might be interesting to look at th "San Francisco Pelican".
                    A combination of the oriental Sampan and the American Dory. Plans are
                    available in 12' 16' and 18' lengths Check out the website -
                    http://www.ns.net/~jheidgr/pub/pelican.htm

                    Go to Information about the designer (Bill Short - fastinating)
                    at the bottom of the page then view the photos and other links.

                    It's a very interesting design - a 12 footer has been sailed to
                    Hawaii and there is a lot of class racing going on especially on the west
                    coast.
                    Plans are available at a very reasonable price from Bills wife Murial at :
                    pelicansailboat@...

                    A friend and I are just starting to enlarge this design to 24'
                    and there are several 20'rs now sailing.

                    Aloha - Jack Spoering - Ft Lauderdale,
                    Fl


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • kwilson800@aol.com
                    According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third sawed off and a new
                    Message 9 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                      According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory is
                      a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back third
                      sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff, OTOH,
                      looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off. Power
                      semi-dories often have completely flat bottoms. If Cartopper is a
                      dory skiff adapted to taped-seam construction, then Diablo is a semi-
                      dory simplified the same way. Gardner's "Dory Book" has a great
                      discussion of the evolution of the dory as a response to the
                      availability of wide machine-sawn boards and inexpensive iron
                      fasteners.

                      --- In bolger@y..., pateson@c... wrote:
                      > And, what the heck is a "Semi-Dory"?
                    • stephen@paskey.net
                      Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a semi-dory have a bottom that s squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a dory skiff come to
                      Message 10 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                        Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
                        squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
                        "dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
                        White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)

                        By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
                        like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
                        anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
                        BWOM.

                        Steve Paskey

                        --- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
                        > According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
                        is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
                        third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
                        OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
                      • Jeff Blunck
                        With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                          With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                          Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                          advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                          around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                          the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                          found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                          seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                          way.

                          Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
                          draft and can carry a large load.

                          I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.

                          Jeff

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <stephen@...>
                          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 2:45 PM
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Why not a Dory?


                          > Exactly. The boats Gardner calls a "semi-dory" have a bottom that's
                          > squared off at the base of the transom, whereas the boats he calls a
                          > "dory skiff" come to a point at the base of the transom. (Joel
                          > White's Shellback dinghy is a dory skiff.)
                          >
                          > By the way, Bolger has designed a boat with a sail that looks much
                          > like a double-ended surf dory: Sweet Pea. Dynamite can call it
                          > anything he wants, but PCB himself referred to it as a surf dory in
                          > BWOM.
                          >
                          > Steve Paskey
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@y..., kwilson800@a... wrote:
                          > > According to John Gardner, who probably ought to know, a semi-dory
                          > is a boat that looks like a normal round-sided dory with the back
                          > third sawed off and a new wider transom installed. A dory skiff,
                          > OTOH, looks like the same dory with only the back 20% sawed off.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
                          > - pls take "personals" off-list, stay on topic, and punctuate
                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts, snip all you like
                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Harry W. James
                          They go into the breaking sea/surf very well at slow speeds as long as the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never ran down wind in
                          Message 12 of 13 , Oct 2, 2001
                            They go into the breaking sea/surf very well at slow speeds as long as
                            the bottom is strong enough when they fall off a wave top. . I never
                            ran down wind in real weather, but it tracked absolutely straight in
                            25kts and 6-8 ft swells with whitecaps. You don't go at displacement
                            speeds, you surf or run off the top into the next swell.

                            HJ

                            Jeff Blunck wrote:
                            >
                            > With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                            > Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                            > advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                            > around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                            > the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                            > found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                            > seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                            > way.
                            >
                            > Or is it just accepted for it's fallacies and used because it's shallow
                            > draft and can carry a large load.
                            >
                            > I like dories personally, kind of nostalgic looking.
                            >
                            > Jeff
                            >
                            >
                          • jhkohnen@boat-links.com
                            Pacific City dories used to be much more dory-like. Harry V. Sucher took the lines of a modern 20 Oregon surf dory he found at Depoe Bay in 1958, it s a bit
                            Message 13 of 13 , Oct 3, 2001
                              Pacific City dories used to be much more dory-like. Harry V. Sucher took
                              the lines of a "modern 20' Oregon surf dory" he found at Depoe Bay in 1958,
                              it's a bit wider (top and bottom) than a bank dory, with quite a bit more
                              rocker, but is doube-ended on the bottom with a tombstone transom. Kinda
                              like a small St. Pierre dory. A friend of mine has an even older version in
                              his yard that's double-ended, with no transom at all. What happened is that
                              powerful outboards got cheaper and the boats started spreading out aft and
                              became planing boats that look a lot like skiffs. The old boats ran at
                              displacement speed and look like they were seaworthy enough to ride out
                              some nasty weather, the new style boats' strategy is to outrun the weather
                              and ride out the storms safely sitting on their trailer while their crews
                              sit in a nice warm tavern and listen to the wind howl. Sounds good to me.
                              <g> With the more accurate weather prediction we have today the strategy
                              works fine, and the faster new boats can fish farther offshore (the dories
                              are day fishermen, they have to get to the fishing grounds and back in the
                              same day).

                              The Oregon dories weren't designed for the Columbia River bar, they
                              developed for fishing off the beach, mostly at Pacific City (SW of
                              Tillamook). They've been used all up and down the coast though, the
                              new-style boats are often used as day fishing boats out of real harbors,
                              never being launched off a beach.

                              On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:56:03 -0600, Jeff wrote:
                              > With all this knowledge about Dories, I ask a question. I know the Pacific
                              > Dory is build with a flat run and generally a straight run aft. What is the
                              > advantage other than shallow draft? It seems that it would get pushed
                              > around severely in a following sea but yet they where designed to be used at
                              > the mouth of the Columbia where some of the roughest seas in the USA can be
                              > found. They use it to train the Coast Guard! They are obviously very
                              > seaworthy boats to Salmon fish 10 to 12 miles out, but what makes them that
                              > way.
                              > ...

                              --
                              John <jkohnen@...>
                              http://www.boat-links.com/
                              They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
                              deserve neither liberty nor safety. <Benjamin Franklin>
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