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Cheap and Dirty:

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  • cha62759@traverse.com
    My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground between Brynzeel and Luan
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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      My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run
      leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
      between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.

      My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
      example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is specified?
      It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good materials
      I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in using
      inferior materials.

      Bob Chamberland
    • David Ryan
      I don t know about where you are, but here 1/4 AC fir can be had for $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can find it. 1/2 AC,
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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        I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be had for
        $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can find
        it. 1/2" AC, $20-$25/sheet; marine, $45/sheet. Exotic marine ply is
        unavailable. On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
        and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
        experience it yields a better boat too.

        I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of the
        Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than many
        people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
        that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
        Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
        tied tight.

        Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
        treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
        "Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea is
        boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up, then
        strip the bits and pieces and build another!

        That said, some of the members of this list do amazing work, and I
        have nothing but admiration for your (you know who your are,)
        craftsmanship.

        YIBB,

        David


        >My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run
        >leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
        >between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.
        >
        >My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
        >example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is specified?
        >It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good materials
        >I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in using
        >inferior materials.
        >
        >Bob Chamberland
        >
        >
        >Bolger rules!!!
        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
        >- no flogging dead horses
        >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
        >- stay on topic and punctuate
        >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
        >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
        >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
        134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
        New York, New York 10001
        http://www.crumblingempire.com
        (212) 247-0296
      • mike_vacanti@hp.com
        AC fir is certainly cheaper than marine grade and it may be perfectly adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a boat better . Mike ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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          AC fir is certainly cheaper than marine grade and it may be perfectly
          adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a
          boat "better".

          Mike

          --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:

          <snip>
          > On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
          > and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
          > experience it yields a better boat too.
          >
          > I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
          the
          > Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than
          many
          > people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
          > that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
          > Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
          > tied tight.
          >
          > Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
          > treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
          > "Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea
          is
          > boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up,
          then
          > strip the bits and pieces and build another!
          >
          <snip>
          >
          > YIBB,
          >
          > David
          >
        • David Ryan
          Better as in AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine alone = better or AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine w/epoxy&glass = cheaper = better ;-) ... CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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            Better as in AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine alone = better

            or

            AC w/epoxy&glass vs. marine w/epoxy&glass = cheaper = better ;-)




            >AC fir is certainly cheaper than marine grade and it may be perfectly
            >adequate for building an instant type boat but how does it make a
            >boat "better".
            >
            >Mike
            >
            >--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
            >
            ><snip>
            >> On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
            >> and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
            >> experience it yields a better boat too.
            >>
            >> I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
            >the
            >> Loose Moose II. He got his escape machine underway for less than
            >many
            >> people are paying for new cars. He also knows of a Loose Moose II
            >> that went over $100K by the time she was launched. The difference?
            >> Knowing what to spent money on, and when to keep the purse strings
            >> tied tight.
            >>
            >> Some of Bolger's designs are quite deserving of the "gold platter"
            >> treatment, but I don't think you'll find any of those designs in
            >> "Instant Boats" or "The New Instant Boats." I think the whole idea
            >is
            >> boats you can build fast and cheap, use hard till there used up,
            >then
            >> strip the bits and pieces and build another!
            >>
            ><snip>
            >>
            >> YIBB,
            >>
            >> David
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >Bolger rules!!!
            >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
            >- no flogging dead horses
            >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
            >- stay on topic and punctuate
            >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
            >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
            >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


            CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
            134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
            New York, New York 10001
            http://www.crumblingempire.com
            (212) 247-0296
          • cha62759@traverse.com
            A good grade of 5ply 6mm Luan Marine Ply is available here for $35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is available and somewhat cheaper
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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              A good grade of 5ply 6mm Luan Marine Ply is available here for
              $35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is
              available and somewhat cheaper than the above. The quality doesn't
              compare. AC that I have seen is trash. Full of voids and patches. All
              other things equal the Luan is going to be a better boat. But maybe
              that much better is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start another hot
              thread here. My question related to using 3/8 cheap stuff or 1/4 good
              stuff for a boat where 1/4 is specified.


              --- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
              > I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be had
              for
              > $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can
              find
              > it. YIBB,
              >

              > David
              >
              >
              > >My experience tells me that using cheap materials in the short run
              > >leads to more expense in the long run. There is a middle ground
              > >between Brynzeel and Luan floor underlayment.> >
              >



              >My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
              > >example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1'4" is
              specified?
              > >It can't be all that much. The pleasure in working with good
              materials
              > >I would think at the very least would out weigh the savings in
              using
              > >inferior materials.
              > >
              > >Bob Chamberland
              > >
              > >
              > >Bolger rules!!!
              > >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
              > >- no flogging dead horses
              > >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
              > >- stay on topic and punctuate
              > >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
              > >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester,
              > >MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > >
              > >
              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              > CRUMBLING EMPIRE PRODUCTIONS
              > 134 West 26th St. 12th Floor
              > New York, New York 10001
              > http://www.crumblingempire.com
              > (212) 247-0296
            • Harry W. James
              It all depends on where you are and what the AC is made out of. It can change in the same store from season to season. At the store I do my building material
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 28, 2001
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                It all depends on where you are and what the AC is made out
                of. It can change in the same store from season to season.
                At the store I do my building material shopping at, I
                noticed the 1/2"AC was exceptional lately. It is not fir,
                and it is 5 even plies with only one or two small voids per
                sheet, and on one or two sheets I mistook the C for the A
                side. Next fall it will probably be back to the 4 Ply void
                ridden crap. It pays to look often and be prepared to leap
                on the good stuff, even if you don't know what you are going
                to build with it.

                HJ



                cha62759@... wrote:
                >
                > A good grade of 5ply 6mm Luan Marine Ply is available here for
                > $35.09 a sheet, 9mm for 44.51, 12mm for 55.47 .Fir marine ply is
                > available and somewhat cheaper than the above. The quality doesn't
                > compare. AC that I have seen is trash. Full of voids and patches. All
                > other things equal the Luan is going to be a better boat. But maybe
                > that much better is unnecessary. I'm not trying to start another hot
                > thread here. My question related to using 3/8 cheap stuff or 1/4 good
                > stuff for a boat where 1/4 is specified.
                >
                >
              • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                I just got through trying to repair the damage to the 1/4 luan sides I used on my Pointy Skiff. Yes, she is ten years + old, but the damage is structural.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 29, 2001
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                  I just got through trying to repair the damage to the 1/4" luan sides
                  I used on my Pointy Skiff. Yes, she is ten years + old, but the
                  damage is structural. We had a lovely crack running down the
                  starboard side from rail to chine and the luan is slowly
                  delaminating. If you can find AC use it.
                  Interesting to note is that the bottom is 3/8" marine ply. It is
                  as good as new despite serious neglect. I admit that the edges are
                  not as exposed as those on the sides. You get what you pay for. If
                  you want quick and dirty boats, use whatever. I think AC is a good
                  comprimise. My Diablo is 100% AC ply and is holding up fine after 10
                  years of use.
                  I will note that I just purchased 4 sheets of 3/8 marine ply for
                  the decking on my Micro. She is turning out to be a silver plater.
                  The lumberyard had tons of mahogany and 1/2" white oak! drool....

                  David Jost


                  -- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
                  > I don't know about where you are, but here 1/4" AC fir can be had
                  for
                  > $15-$20 a sheet. 1/4 marine fir is a least $35/sheet, if you can
                  find
                  > it. 1/2" AC, $20-$25/sheet; marine, $45/sheet. Exotic marine ply is
                  > unavailable. On a four sheet boat, the price difference between AC
                  > and marine fir pays for the epoxy and then some. Based on my own
                  > experience it yields a better boat too.
                  >
                  > I had a long and illuminating exchange with Bob Wise, builder of
                • kwilson800@aol.com
                  In Minnesota, I can get 5-ply Meranti BS1088 for about $28/sheet. No knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16 for 1/4, about $20-22
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 29, 2001
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                    In Minnesota, I can get 5-ply Meranti BS1088 for about $28/sheet. No
                    knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16
                    for 1/4, about $20-22 for 3/8, both 3-ply. The 1/4" varies, some is
                    not too bad, but the 3/8 is almost all dreadful. Lauan underlayment
                    is maybe $12. No contest, particularly since I like to build glued
                    lapstrake boats which pretty much require good plywood. My first few
                    boats were ACX or Lauan, but I were building another Teal, I'd still
                    buy the good stuff now.

                    OTOH, in many places, the only way to get marine ply other than
                    douglas fir is to order it. There are places with reasonable prices,
                    but the shipping cost on a small order is so high that the price per
                    sheet gets out of hand. And if it were a choice of building cheap or
                    not building at all, well, that's a no-brainer too.

                    Keith Wilson

                    --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
                    > My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
                    > example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1/4" is
                    specified?
                  • James Fuller
                    Hi, In eastern New Mexico the cost of real marine plywood, including freight, is about $75 for 1/4 and $100 for 3/8 . Freight of course is the problem. All
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 29, 2001
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                      Hi,

                      In eastern New Mexico the cost of real marine plywood,
                      including freight, is about $75 for 1/4" and $100 for
                      3/8". Freight of course is the problem. All you can find
                      here is exterior A/C ply and the quality varies greatly, even within the
                      same lift of wood. Fiberglas and epoxy
                      help but as Dave Carnell points out, when you cover
                      it with epoxy and cloth it still is not as good as marine
                      ply and it still costs as much.
                      James Fuller
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <kwilson800@...>
                      To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:13 AM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Cheap and Dirty - plywood choices:


                      > In Minnesota, I can get 5-ply Meranti BS1088 for about $28/sheet. No
                      > knots, no voids, fairly heavy and strong. ACX fir is about $15-16
                      > for 1/4, about $20-22 for 3/8, both 3-ply. The 1/4" varies, some is
                      > not too bad, but the 3/8 is almost all dreadful. Lauan underlayment
                      > is maybe $12. No contest, particularly since I like to build glued
                      > lapstrake boats which pretty much require good plywood. My first few
                      > boats were ACX or Lauan, but I were building another Teal, I'd still
                      > buy the good stuff now.
                      >
                      > OTOH, in many places, the only way to get marine ply other than
                      > douglas fir is to order it. There are places with reasonable prices,
                      > but the shipping cost on a small order is so high that the price per
                      > sheet gets out of hand. And if it were a choice of building cheap or
                      > not building at all, well, that's a no-brainer too.
                      >
                      > Keith Wilson
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@y..., cha62759@t... wrote:
                      > > My question for now is what is the cost differential in using, for
                      > > example, 3/8" AC or 6mm good material where 6mm or 1/4" is
                      > specified?
                      >
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                      > - no flogging dead horses
                      > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                      > - stay on topic and punctuate
                      > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                      > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                      01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • cadbury@swbell.net
                      Here is Eastern Missouri, I have found one place that stocks 1/4 fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don t bother asking about occume. I would be plenty happy if
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 30, 2001
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                        Here is Eastern Missouri, I have found one place that stocks
                        1/4" fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don't bother asking about
                        occume.

                        I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
                        I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
                        gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
                        that nobody but boat builders wanted.

                        My first boat is BC pine exterior and it is looking more and more
                        like my next boat will be, also.

                        By the way, very little AC fir around here, and what there is looks
                        worse than the BC pine.


                        Max
                      • James Fuller
                        You might check with a sign painter in your area. They use the MDO for signs and will probably know of a source. James Fuller ... From:
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 1 10:44 AM
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                          You might check with a sign painter in your area. They use the MDO for
                          signs and will probably know
                          of a source.

                          James Fuller

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: <cadbury@...>
                          To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 10:39 PM
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Cheap and Dirty - plywood choices:


                          > Here is Eastern Missouri, I have found one place that stocks
                          > 1/4" fir marine, @ $48.50 / sheet. Don't bother asking about
                          > occume.
                          >
                          > I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
                          > I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
                          > gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
                          > that nobody but boat builders wanted.
                          >
                          > My first boat is BC pine exterior and it is looking more and more
                          > like my next boat will be, also.
                          >
                          > By the way, very little AC fir around here, and what there is looks
                          > worse than the BC pine.
                          >
                          >
                          > Max
                          >
                          >
                          > Bolger rules!!!
                          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
                          > - no flogging dead horses
                          > - add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                          > - stay on topic and punctuate
                          > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                          > - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • cadbury@swbell.net
                          ... for ... The sign painters use 3/4 MDO. I can get 3/4 MDO all over the place. A few places even have 1/2 . No one carries anything thinner than that,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 1 5:32 PM
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                            --- In bolger@y..., "James Fuller" <james@p...> wrote:
                            > You might check with a sign painter in your area. They use the MDO
                            for
                            > signs and will probably know
                            > of a source.


                            The sign painters use 3/4" MDO. I can get 3/4" MDO all over the
                            place. A few places even have 1/2". No one carries anything
                            thinner than that, although they will be happy to order
                            a pallet-load of the stuff for me.


                            Max
                          • Chris Crandall
                            ... I ordered up some 3/8 MDO here in Eastern Kansas. It sucked so bad, that even the lumberyard guy called me up and told me prepare to be disappointed . I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 2 9:00 AM
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                              On Sun, 1 Jul 2001 cadbury@... wrote:

                              > Here is Eastern Missouri . . .
                              > I would be plenty happy if I could find a source of 3/8" MDO.
                              > I had located ONE yard that carried it, but they have now
                              > gone out of business (probably because they stocked 3/8" MDO
                              > that nobody but boat builders wanted.

                              I ordered up some 3/8 MDO here in Eastern Kansas. It sucked so bad, that
                              even the lumberyard guy called me up and told me "prepare to be
                              disappointed". I ended up buying some 1/2" MDO, which is OK, but doesn't
                              make my heart sing.

                              It's on the coasts (and Texas) that good ply can had at "sensible" prices.
                              Trucking costs.
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