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Re: Now that there are real Micros here, a rudder question

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  • jmcdan@hsonline.net
    I m the John (don t bother, after 53 years, I ve heard ALL ... A little clarification is in order. BANTY s upper rudder bearing arrangement is virtually
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
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      I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
      the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:

      > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
      > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.

      A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
      arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.

      Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
      both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
      2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
      also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
      inch white oak.

      BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
      sailing.

      John McDaniel
    • djost@ma.ultranet.com
      Thanks John and Greg, I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner? I can t quite
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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        Thanks John and Greg,

        I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do
        either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner?
        I can't quite picture how the gate hinge would work. It would
        still seem to me to require a little modification of the hole in the
        bottom abaft frame D, and a modification to the upper bearing since
        the rudder will now turn in a small arc as opposed to rotating around
        its axis.
        The heavy duty white oak idea is interesting to me since we have
        plenty of it around, this would probably be best for a trailer
        boat. My boat will spend most of its life at a mooring in salt water
        so I am real concerned about marine borers and other nasties.
        To answer Greg's concern as to how the rudder would spin around
        the central axis with the steel plate idea, the plate would extend
        aft past the keel for at least 2" so that the hole drilled in the
        plate would line up with the pin extending from the center of the
        rudder. The assemble could then be locked down with a lock nut or
        nut/cotter pin arrangement.

        David Jost
        "in need of an ark"



        > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I
        oversized
        > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
        > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
        > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is
        3/4
        > inch white oak.
        >
        > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
        > sailing.
        >
        > John McDaniel
      • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
        Hello John, I apologize for not being more specific in stating which John .My lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name alone since
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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          Hello John,
          I apologize for not being more specific in stating which"John".My
          lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name
          alone since you were the first to post a lovely picture of your MICRO
          in the files section of the group and also as the builder of a Bolger
          ANTISPRAY of which you wrote about in previous postings.
          And speaking about ANTISPRAY,how goes your wonderful live-a-board
          project?Any pictures?
          Thanks for taking the time to clarify your MICRO rudder
          installation.I am sure David(Jost) and others in rudder quandary will
          appreciate both it and its proven longevity!
          Sincerely,
          Peter Lenihan


          --- In bolger@y..., jmcdan@h... wrote:
          >
          >
          > I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
          > the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:
          >
          > > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
          > > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.
          >
          > A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
          > arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.
          >
          > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
          > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
          > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
          > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
          > inch white oak.
          >
          > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
          > sailing.
          >
          > John McDaniel
        • colcath@ozemail.com.au
          -- Dave, There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder setup by Larry BUCK in CSD s Common Sense News volume 12 issue 5 on page 3. I don t have
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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            --

            Dave,
            There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
            setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
            page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.

            Regards,

            Col Mooney



            - In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
            > Peter,
            >
            > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
            > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
            > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
            have
            > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
            > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
            a
            > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
            > rudder and blade.
            > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
            > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
            > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel. I had
            > forgotten about the piece at the top! that would need to be worked
            > on as well or eliminated, I am not so sure I want to do that. In
            all
            > of my dreams about tiller arrangements, that piece is there helping
            > to support the tiller as I am leaning on it.
            > I guess I will try Bolger's arrangement and just soak
            > everything in epoxy to eliminate as much of the rot problem as is
            > possible. There are enough sources of white oak around that I am
            > sure I can get a real nice piece to carve out for this function. I
            > don't think that fir is suitable (strenght issues) and plywood may
            be
            > difficult to fasten to the keel as it would be edge fastened.
            >
            > > new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no
            > problem
            > > since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
            > > free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight
            > integrity
            > > so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how
            > you
            > > will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to
            > the
            > > cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
            > > intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
            > > Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
            > > your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon
            > from
            > > those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
            > > And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky
            > crew
            > > and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness
            and
            > > sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario
            > here
            > > we come!
            > > Continued success!
            > > Sincerely,
            > > Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall
            > takes
            > > on biblical proportions,from the shores of the
            > St.Lawrence.........
            > >
            > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
            > > > this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here
            is
            > my
            > > > question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
            > > >
            > > > Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their
            > rudder?
            > > I
            > > > have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
            > > > rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
            > > > susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I
            > know
            > > > that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is
            probably
            > > the
            > > > most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the
            Canadian
            > > Navy
            > > > may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
            > > > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and
            > pintles
            > > > and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder
            > passes
            > > > in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope
            to
            > > > mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
            > > >
            > > > David Jost
            > > > Boston, MA
          • pongo19050@yahoo.com
            My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro s. I built it prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood rudder stock in two layers
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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              My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro's. I built it
              prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood
              rudder stock in two layers of glass tape set in epoxy. I used white
              oak for the bottom bearing and triple 1/4 ply for the top bearing.
              The bottom bearing is attached to the keel using big stainless lug
              screws. I coated all bearing surfaces with expoxy mixed with
              powdered graphite. Also, I pretreated all of the rudder and keel ply
              and framing with wood preservative and then painted with bottom paint
              inside and out. The Oldshoe has endplates on the rudder. I used
              white oak for these as well.

              It seems plenty strong. I am planning to keep the boat in the water
              and so will trailer it only once or twice a year. I let you know how
              it works out. I hope to launch July 4th.

              Regards

              Andy Farquhar
            • djost@ma.ultranet.com
              Col, I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it? Davdi Jost
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                Col,
                I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                Davdi Jost
                > Dave,
                > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
                > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Col Mooney
                >
                >
                >
              • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
                David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click on Files (left
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                  David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded
                  name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click
                  on "Files" (left column of this page), then click on the folder
                  named "CSD Newsletters" (naaaah, I said it again...) and find the one
                  you need. Best, Pippo


                  --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                  > Col,
                  > I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                  > Davdi Jost
                  > > Dave,
                  > > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                  > > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue
                  5 on
                  > > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                  > >
                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Col Mooney
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                • vcgraphics@theriver.com
                  David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it. This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder with bushings turned by lath from an old
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                    David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it.

                    This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder
                    with bushings turned by lath from an old bronze drive shaft.

                    The fancy approach is probably not needed. The bolts could be
                    held by the Gougeon bros method of drilling a loose fit hole for
                    the threaded fastening, and epoxying the fasteners, well coated
                    with release agent, into the holes. The Gougeons do this with
                    winch mountings, so it must be plenty strong, at least with a
                    sideways force. The release agent allows the hardware to be
                    threaded in and out when need be. Without the bronze bushings
                    fabrication becomes simple.

                    Vance

                    --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                    wrote:
                    > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                    dreaded
                    > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
                  • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                    Vance and Pippo, Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files! This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small modifictions. 1.
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 5, 2001
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                      Vance and Pippo,
                      Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files!
                      This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small
                      modifictions.

                      1. I have ordered a 14" piece of 2"X 1/4" bronze plate to be rabbeted
                      into the keel (full width side to side) and will tap it for (6) 3" #10
                      silicon bronze screws set in epoxy with release agent (wax) on the
                      screws.

                      2. I was planning on using a bronze rod inserted into the post, but I
                      can see that a suitable bronze bolt may be a lot simpler if set in the
                      epoxy bushing! I may build a test piece to see how difficult this may
                      be.

                      3. a bronze washer epoxied on the rudder will serve as a bearing
                      surface. I still have a can of WEST graphite so will probably coat
                      both surfaces with it since it is easy to redo when it wears. It also
                      will help with the pivot.


                      Many thanks for the help.
                      David Jost
                      >
                      > Vance
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                      > dreaded
                      > > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
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