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Re: Now that there are real Micros here, a rudder question

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  • djost@ma.ultranet.com
    ... I have in my possession about 24 3/8 bronze rods that we have used as plant stakes in the garden for about 50 years! doh! If I can find a 12 piece of
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
      --- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
      I have in my possession about 24 3/8" bronze rods that we have used
      as plant stakes in the garden for about 50 years! doh!

      If I can find a 12" piece of bronze 1/4" bronze plate to match, that
      is the way to go. I had thought about this before and had laminated
      up a 3/4" piece of marine ply but abandoned the thought when I
      realized that the piece would be the first to hit some immobile
      submerged object. The answer is obviously to cut a rabbet into the
      keel into which this piece (now bronze) will sit. a couple of
      washers and a locknut and we are ready to rumble.

      Now to find a source for a small amount of 1/4" plate.

      Thanks Peter, you have confirmed my suspicions about this
      technique. I am going to glass the keel tommorrow afternoon, I just
      won't get too fussy over the last 12" of keel base.

      Happy sailing,
      David Jost

      > locknut just tight enough to remove any vertical movement of the
      > rudder.Oh yes,do not forget to drill a half dozen holes,in the flat
      > bar,sized to take say a number 10 or 12 screw.This is what will
      secure
      > the plate to the bottom of your keel.Hopefully,there is enough
      solid
      > wood there to permit this in your case.And do try to keep the
      exposed
      > threads of the above mentioned rod epoxy free while you are driving
      it
      > home in its hole.
      > Anyway,just a thought in case you still want to try
      a"beefer"set
      > up for your rudder.Either way,let us know your final choice so we
      > won't have to go diving under FIREFLY at the LAKE CHAMPLAIN BOLGER
      > MESSABOUT to find out the answer ;-)
      > Sincerely,
      > Peter Lenihan,wishing he had the tools and know how to send
      drawings
      > through cyber space instead of words to confuse innocent
      builders,on
      > the shores of the rainy,+12C.,St.Lawrence..........
      >
      >
      > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
      > > Peter,
      > >
      > > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of
      biblical
      > > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not
      under "Firefly".
      > > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
      have
      > > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
      > > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is
      not
      > a
      > > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove
      the
      > > rudder and blade.
      > > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
      > > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This
      may
      > > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel.
    • Gregg Carlson
      I don t see how the shaft could turn on centerline with this arrangement. Anyway, I used an ordinary, heavy-duty, steel gate pivot, which like about a 5/8 x
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
        I don't see how the shaft could turn on centerline with this arrangement.

        Anyway, I used an ordinary, heavy-duty, steel gate pivot, which like about
        a 5/8" x 4" lag screw with a knobby end and vertical pin, galvanised. Hard
        to describe, but you've seen them before...

        Gregg

        At 01:49 PM 6/2/01 -0000, you wrote:
        >this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is my
        >question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
        >
        >Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their rudder? I
        >have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
        >rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
        >susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I know
        >that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably the
        >most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian Navy
        >may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
        > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and pintles
        >and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder passes
        >in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
        >mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
        >
        >David Jost
        > Boston, MA
        >
        >
        >Bolger rules!!!
        >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
        >- no flogging dead horses
        >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
        >- stay on topic and punctuate
        >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
        >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
        01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • jmcdan@hsonline.net
        I m the John (don t bother, after 53 years, I ve heard ALL ... A little clarification is in order. BANTY s upper rudder bearing arrangement is virtually
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
          I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
          the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:

          > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
          > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.

          A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
          arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.

          Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
          both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
          2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
          also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
          inch white oak.

          BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
          sailing.

          John McDaniel
        • djost@ma.ultranet.com
          Thanks John and Greg, I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner? I can t quite
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
            Thanks John and Greg,

            I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do
            either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner?
            I can't quite picture how the gate hinge would work. It would
            still seem to me to require a little modification of the hole in the
            bottom abaft frame D, and a modification to the upper bearing since
            the rudder will now turn in a small arc as opposed to rotating around
            its axis.
            The heavy duty white oak idea is interesting to me since we have
            plenty of it around, this would probably be best for a trailer
            boat. My boat will spend most of its life at a mooring in salt water
            so I am real concerned about marine borers and other nasties.
            To answer Greg's concern as to how the rudder would spin around
            the central axis with the steel plate idea, the plate would extend
            aft past the keel for at least 2" so that the hole drilled in the
            plate would line up with the pin extending from the center of the
            rudder. The assemble could then be locked down with a lock nut or
            nut/cotter pin arrangement.

            David Jost
            "in need of an ark"



            > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I
            oversized
            > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
            > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
            > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is
            3/4
            > inch white oak.
            >
            > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
            > sailing.
            >
            > John McDaniel
          • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
            Hello John, I apologize for not being more specific in stating which John .My lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name alone since
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
              Hello John,
              I apologize for not being more specific in stating which"John".My
              lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name
              alone since you were the first to post a lovely picture of your MICRO
              in the files section of the group and also as the builder of a Bolger
              ANTISPRAY of which you wrote about in previous postings.
              And speaking about ANTISPRAY,how goes your wonderful live-a-board
              project?Any pictures?
              Thanks for taking the time to clarify your MICRO rudder
              installation.I am sure David(Jost) and others in rudder quandary will
              appreciate both it and its proven longevity!
              Sincerely,
              Peter Lenihan


              --- In bolger@y..., jmcdan@h... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
              > the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:
              >
              > > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
              > > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.
              >
              > A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
              > arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.
              >
              > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
              > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
              > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
              > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
              > inch white oak.
              >
              > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
              > sailing.
              >
              > John McDaniel
            • colcath@ozemail.com.au
              -- Dave, There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder setup by Larry BUCK in CSD s Common Sense News volume 12 issue 5 on page 3. I don t have
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
                --

                Dave,
                There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
                page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.

                Regards,

                Col Mooney



                - In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                > Peter,
                >
                > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
                > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
                > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
                have
                > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
                > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
                a
                > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
                > rudder and blade.
                > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
                > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
                > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel. I had
                > forgotten about the piece at the top! that would need to be worked
                > on as well or eliminated, I am not so sure I want to do that. In
                all
                > of my dreams about tiller arrangements, that piece is there helping
                > to support the tiller as I am leaning on it.
                > I guess I will try Bolger's arrangement and just soak
                > everything in epoxy to eliminate as much of the rot problem as is
                > possible. There are enough sources of white oak around that I am
                > sure I can get a real nice piece to carve out for this function. I
                > don't think that fir is suitable (strenght issues) and plywood may
                be
                > difficult to fasten to the keel as it would be edge fastened.
                >
                > > new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no
                > problem
                > > since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
                > > free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight
                > integrity
                > > so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how
                > you
                > > will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to
                > the
                > > cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
                > > intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
                > > Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
                > > your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon
                > from
                > > those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
                > > And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky
                > crew
                > > and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness
                and
                > > sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario
                > here
                > > we come!
                > > Continued success!
                > > Sincerely,
                > > Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall
                > takes
                > > on biblical proportions,from the shores of the
                > St.Lawrence.........
                > >
                > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                > > > this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here
                is
                > my
                > > > question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
                > > >
                > > > Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their
                > rudder?
                > > I
                > > > have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
                > > > rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
                > > > susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I
                > know
                > > > that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is
                probably
                > > the
                > > > most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the
                Canadian
                > > Navy
                > > > may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
                > > > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and
                > pintles
                > > > and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder
                > passes
                > > > in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope
                to
                > > > mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
                > > >
                > > > David Jost
                > > > Boston, MA
              • pongo19050@yahoo.com
                My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro s. I built it prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood rudder stock in two layers
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
                  My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro's. I built it
                  prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood
                  rudder stock in two layers of glass tape set in epoxy. I used white
                  oak for the bottom bearing and triple 1/4 ply for the top bearing.
                  The bottom bearing is attached to the keel using big stainless lug
                  screws. I coated all bearing surfaces with expoxy mixed with
                  powdered graphite. Also, I pretreated all of the rudder and keel ply
                  and framing with wood preservative and then painted with bottom paint
                  inside and out. The Oldshoe has endplates on the rudder. I used
                  white oak for these as well.

                  It seems plenty strong. I am planning to keep the boat in the water
                  and so will trailer it only once or twice a year. I let you know how
                  it works out. I hope to launch July 4th.

                  Regards

                  Andy Farquhar
                • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                  Col, I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it? Davdi Jost
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
                    Col,
                    I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                    Davdi Jost
                    > Dave,
                    > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                    > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
                    > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Col Mooney
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
                    David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click on Files (left
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
                      David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded
                      name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click
                      on "Files" (left column of this page), then click on the folder
                      named "CSD Newsletters" (naaaah, I said it again...) and find the one
                      you need. Best, Pippo


                      --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                      > Col,
                      > I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                      > Davdi Jost
                      > > Dave,
                      > > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                      > > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue
                      5 on
                      > > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > >
                      > > Col Mooney
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • vcgraphics@theriver.com
                      David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it. This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder with bushings turned by lath from an old
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
                        David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it.

                        This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder
                        with bushings turned by lath from an old bronze drive shaft.

                        The fancy approach is probably not needed. The bolts could be
                        held by the Gougeon bros method of drilling a loose fit hole for
                        the threaded fastening, and epoxying the fasteners, well coated
                        with release agent, into the holes. The Gougeons do this with
                        winch mountings, so it must be plenty strong, at least with a
                        sideways force. The release agent allows the hardware to be
                        threaded in and out when need be. Without the bronze bushings
                        fabrication becomes simple.

                        Vance

                        --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                        wrote:
                        > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                        dreaded
                        > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
                      • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                        Vance and Pippo, Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files! This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small modifictions. 1.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 5, 2001
                          Vance and Pippo,
                          Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files!
                          This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small
                          modifictions.

                          1. I have ordered a 14" piece of 2"X 1/4" bronze plate to be rabbeted
                          into the keel (full width side to side) and will tap it for (6) 3" #10
                          silicon bronze screws set in epoxy with release agent (wax) on the
                          screws.

                          2. I was planning on using a bronze rod inserted into the post, but I
                          can see that a suitable bronze bolt may be a lot simpler if set in the
                          epoxy bushing! I may build a test piece to see how difficult this may
                          be.

                          3. a bronze washer epoxied on the rudder will serve as a bearing
                          surface. I still have a can of WEST graphite so will probably coat
                          both surfaces with it since it is easy to redo when it wears. It also
                          will help with the pivot.


                          Many thanks for the help.
                          David Jost
                          >
                          > Vance
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                          > wrote:
                          > > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                          > dreaded
                          > > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
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