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Re: Now that there are real Micros here, a rudder question

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  • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
    David, In my daftiness,it never occured to me that you could indeed simply reverse or hang upside down one of the pintles!Great!! As to the resulting gap;how
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
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      David,
      In my daftiness,it never occured to me that you could indeed
      simply reverse or hang upside down one of the pintles!Great!!
      As to the resulting gap;how about using a piece of tire inner
      tube,spit length wise,to create a soft flexible shield thus preventing
      the rudder from ventilating?
      Or how about this:get yourself a lenght of s/s threaded rod about 3/8
      to 1/2 inches in diameter by about a foot long.Drill a slightly
      smaller diameter hole up into the base of your rudder stock,make a
      slury of epoxy and drive the rod into this hole leaving about an inch
      to an inch and a half exposed.Then,find yourself a short lenght of s/s
      flat bar of about 1/4" X width of your keel X 12".After cutting out
      about a 10" by 1/4" rabbit in the aft end of the base of the keel into
      which will sit this piece of flat bar,carefully drill a hole slightly
      larger then your size of rod through it.Make sure this hole is
      properly centered/aligned so as to allow your rudder to hang perfectly
      vertical.A couple of nylon washers between this bottom plate and your
      rudder will see things turning smoothly.Snug up from the bottom with a
      locknut just tight enough to remove any vertical movement of the
      rudder.Oh yes,do not forget to drill a half dozen holes,in the flat
      bar,sized to take say a number 10 or 12 screw.This is what will secure
      the plate to the bottom of your keel.Hopefully,there is enough solid
      wood there to permit this in your case.And do try to keep the exposed
      threads of the above mentioned rod epoxy free while you are driving it
      home in its hole.
      Anyway,just a thought in case you still want to try a"beefer"set
      up for your rudder.Either way,let us know your final choice so we
      won't have to go diving under FIREFLY at the LAKE CHAMPLAIN BOLGER
      MESSABOUT to find out the answer ;-)
      Sincerely,
      Peter Lenihan,wishing he had the tools and know how to send drawings
      through cyber space instead of words to confuse innocent builders,on
      the shores of the rainy,+12C.,St.Lawrence..........


      --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
      > Peter,
      >
      > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
      > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
      > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and have
      > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
      > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
      a
      > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
      > rudder and blade.
      > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
      > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
      > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel.
    • djost@ma.ultranet.com
      ... I have in my possession about 24 3/8 bronze rods that we have used as plant stakes in the garden for about 50 years! doh! If I can find a 12 piece of
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
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        --- In bolger@y..., ellengaest@b... wrote:
        I have in my possession about 24 3/8" bronze rods that we have used
        as plant stakes in the garden for about 50 years! doh!

        If I can find a 12" piece of bronze 1/4" bronze plate to match, that
        is the way to go. I had thought about this before and had laminated
        up a 3/4" piece of marine ply but abandoned the thought when I
        realized that the piece would be the first to hit some immobile
        submerged object. The answer is obviously to cut a rabbet into the
        keel into which this piece (now bronze) will sit. a couple of
        washers and a locknut and we are ready to rumble.

        Now to find a source for a small amount of 1/4" plate.

        Thanks Peter, you have confirmed my suspicions about this
        technique. I am going to glass the keel tommorrow afternoon, I just
        won't get too fussy over the last 12" of keel base.

        Happy sailing,
        David Jost

        > locknut just tight enough to remove any vertical movement of the
        > rudder.Oh yes,do not forget to drill a half dozen holes,in the flat
        > bar,sized to take say a number 10 or 12 screw.This is what will
        secure
        > the plate to the bottom of your keel.Hopefully,there is enough
        solid
        > wood there to permit this in your case.And do try to keep the
        exposed
        > threads of the above mentioned rod epoxy free while you are driving
        it
        > home in its hole.
        > Anyway,just a thought in case you still want to try
        a"beefer"set
        > up for your rudder.Either way,let us know your final choice so we
        > won't have to go diving under FIREFLY at the LAKE CHAMPLAIN BOLGER
        > MESSABOUT to find out the answer ;-)
        > Sincerely,
        > Peter Lenihan,wishing he had the tools and know how to send
        drawings
        > through cyber space instead of words to confuse innocent
        builders,on
        > the shores of the rainy,+12C.,St.Lawrence..........
        >
        >
        > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
        > > Peter,
        > >
        > > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of
        biblical
        > > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not
        under "Firefly".
        > > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
        have
        > > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
        > > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is
        not
        > a
        > > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove
        the
        > > rudder and blade.
        > > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
        > > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This
        may
        > > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel.
      • Gregg Carlson
        I don t see how the shaft could turn on centerline with this arrangement. Anyway, I used an ordinary, heavy-duty, steel gate pivot, which like about a 5/8 x
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
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          I don't see how the shaft could turn on centerline with this arrangement.

          Anyway, I used an ordinary, heavy-duty, steel gate pivot, which like about
          a 5/8" x 4" lag screw with a knobby end and vertical pin, galvanised. Hard
          to describe, but you've seen them before...

          Gregg

          At 01:49 PM 6/2/01 -0000, you wrote:
          >this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here is my
          >question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
          >
          >Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their rudder? I
          >have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
          >rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
          >susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I know
          >that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is probably the
          >most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the Canadian Navy
          >may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
          > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and pintles
          >and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder passes
          >in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope to
          >mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
          >
          >David Jost
          > Boston, MA
          >
          >
          >Bolger rules!!!
          >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, or spamming
          >- no flogging dead horses
          >- add something: take "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
          >- stay on topic and punctuate
          >- add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
          >- To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • jmcdan@hsonline.net
          I m the John (don t bother, after 53 years, I ve heard ALL ... A little clarification is in order. BANTY s upper rudder bearing arrangement is virtually
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 2, 2001
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            I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
            the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:

            > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
            > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.

            A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
            arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.

            Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
            both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
            2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
            also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
            inch white oak.

            BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
            sailing.

            John McDaniel
          • djost@ma.ultranet.com
            Thanks John and Greg, I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner? I can t quite
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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              Thanks John and Greg,

              I would love to see some pictures of the rudder arrangements. Do
              either of you have a polaroid camera and a scanner?
              I can't quite picture how the gate hinge would work. It would
              still seem to me to require a little modification of the hole in the
              bottom abaft frame D, and a modification to the upper bearing since
              the rudder will now turn in a small arc as opposed to rotating around
              its axis.
              The heavy duty white oak idea is interesting to me since we have
              plenty of it around, this would probably be best for a trailer
              boat. My boat will spend most of its life at a mooring in salt water
              so I am real concerned about marine borers and other nasties.
              To answer Greg's concern as to how the rudder would spin around
              the central axis with the steel plate idea, the plate would extend
              aft past the keel for at least 2" so that the hole drilled in the
              plate would line up with the pin extending from the center of the
              rudder. The assemble could then be locked down with a lock nut or
              nut/cotter pin arrangement.

              David Jost
              "in need of an ark"



              > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I
              oversized
              > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
              > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
              > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is
              3/4
              > inch white oak.
              >
              > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
              > sailing.
              >
              > John McDaniel
            • ellengaest@boatbuilding.com
              Hello John, I apologize for not being more specific in stating which John .My lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name alone since
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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                Hello John,
                I apologize for not being more specific in stating which"John".My
                lazy thinking just presumed we all would recognize you by boat name
                alone since you were the first to post a lovely picture of your MICRO
                in the files section of the group and also as the builder of a Bolger
                ANTISPRAY of which you wrote about in previous postings.
                And speaking about ANTISPRAY,how goes your wonderful live-a-board
                project?Any pictures?
                Thanks for taking the time to clarify your MICRO rudder
                installation.I am sure David(Jost) and others in rudder quandary will
                appreciate both it and its proven longevity!
                Sincerely,
                Peter Lenihan


                --- In bolger@y..., jmcdan@h... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I'm the "John" (don't bother, after 53 years, I've heard ALL
                > the "John" jokes) referred to in the following:
                >
                > > In fact Johns Micro BANTY(see files)
                > > used this set up and he once wrote about its success.
                >
                > A little clarification is in order. BANTY's upper rudder bearing
                > arrangement is virtually identical to the plans.
                >
                > Following experience with another MICRO built per plans, I oversized
                > both the rudder stock and lower rudder bearing. The rudder stock is
                > 2.5 inch diameter white oak. The lower rudder bearing is white oak
                > also and is constructed from 2" stock. The upper rudder bear is 3/4
                > inch white oak.
                >
                > BANTY's rudder is still going strong after 10 years of trailer
                > sailing.
                >
                > John McDaniel
              • colcath@ozemail.com.au
                -- Dave, There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder setup by Larry BUCK in CSD s Common Sense News volume 12 issue 5 on page 3. I don t have
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 3, 2001
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                  --

                  Dave,
                  There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                  setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
                  page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.

                  Regards,

                  Col Mooney



                  - In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                  > Peter,
                  >
                  > thanks for the prompt reply, we obviously have rain of biblical
                  > proportions here now, that is why I am here and not under "Firefly".
                  > I have used G+P on other boats with underslung rudders and
                  have
                  > just hung one of them upside down to lock the assembly in the
                  > vertical plane. since this is not a removeable rudder, this is not
                  a
                  > problem. You just unscrew the pintles from the blade to remove the
                  > rudder and blade.
                  > the rudder will be at least 3/4" further aft due to the g+P
                  > clearance needed so the hole may not be that big a deal. This may
                  > create too much turbulence between the rudder and keel. I had
                  > forgotten about the piece at the top! that would need to be worked
                  > on as well or eliminated, I am not so sure I want to do that. In
                  all
                  > of my dreams about tiller arrangements, that piece is there helping
                  > to support the tiller as I am leaning on it.
                  > I guess I will try Bolger's arrangement and just soak
                  > everything in epoxy to eliminate as much of the rot problem as is
                  > possible. There are enough sources of white oak around that I am
                  > sure I can get a real nice piece to carve out for this function. I
                  > don't think that fir is suitable (strenght issues) and plywood may
                  be
                  > difficult to fasten to the keel as it would be edge fastened.
                  >
                  > > new arc;so long as the hole is opened further aft there is no
                  > problem
                  > > since this is above the static waterline and only floods the
                  > > free-flooding well.Going forward will breach the watertight
                  > integrity
                  > > so essential to us little guys.You may also wish to consider how
                  > you
                  > > will deal with the hole in the top bracket(the piece attached to
                  > the
                  > > cocpit deck,just bellow the tiller clamp on the plans),unless you
                  > > intend on eliminating this piece altogther.
                  > > Sounds like alot of fun David!Anyway,that is my take on
                  > > your situation.Hopefully,some good ideas will be forthcoming soon
                  > from
                  > > those better experienced with gudgeons and pintles.
                  > > And fear not,the day a national crisis arrives, me,the pesky
                  > crew
                  > > and the boat are going to slip away under the cover of darkness
                  and
                  > > sneak across the border into the land of the free!Yup....Ontario
                  > here
                  > > we come!
                  > > Continued success!
                  > > Sincerely,
                  > > Peter Lenihan,glad to have a personal ark in case this rainfall
                  > takes
                  > > on biblical proportions,from the shores of the
                  > St.Lawrence.........
                  > >
                  > > --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                  > > > this is exciting to have yet another Micro in the group. Here
                  is
                  > my
                  > > > question of the day to all Micro builders past and present.
                  > > >
                  > > > Has anyone used standard pintle and gudgeons to hang their
                  > rudder?
                  > > I
                  > > > have zero confidence in the wooden cleats through a hole in the
                  > > > rudder bottom and then screwed onto the keel. That seems too
                  > > > susceptible to breakage from either trailer transit, or rot. I
                  > know
                  > > > that Peter did a first class job with his rudder, and is
                  probably
                  > > the
                  > > > most durable Micro rudder in existance. (I suspect the
                  Canadian
                  > > Navy
                  > > > may commission his ship in the event of a National crisis).
                  > > > What would be the effect of using standard gudgeons and
                  > pintles
                  > > > and reshaping the hole in the bottom through which the rudder
                  > passes
                  > > > in order to accomodate the oval arc it will travel in? I hope
                  to
                  > > > mount my rudder next weekend, family willing.
                  > > >
                  > > > David Jost
                  > > > Boston, MA
                • pongo19050@yahoo.com
                  My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro s. I built it prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood rudder stock in two layers
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                    My Oldshoe has a rudder that is very similar to Micro's. I built it
                    prety much according to plan except that I wrapped the hardwood
                    rudder stock in two layers of glass tape set in epoxy. I used white
                    oak for the bottom bearing and triple 1/4 ply for the top bearing.
                    The bottom bearing is attached to the keel using big stainless lug
                    screws. I coated all bearing surfaces with expoxy mixed with
                    powdered graphite. Also, I pretreated all of the rudder and keel ply
                    and framing with wood preservative and then painted with bottom paint
                    inside and out. The Oldshoe has endplates on the rudder. I used
                    white oak for these as well.

                    It seems plenty strong. I am planning to keep the boat in the water
                    and so will trailer it only once or twice a year. I let you know how
                    it works out. I hope to launch July 4th.

                    Regards

                    Andy Farquhar
                  • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                    Col, I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it? Davdi Jost
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                      Col,
                      I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                      Davdi Jost
                      > Dave,
                      > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                      > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue 5 on
                      > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Col Mooney
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
                      David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click on Files (left
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                        David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the dreaded
                        name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files, some time ago. Click
                        on "Files" (left column of this page), then click on the folder
                        named "CSD Newsletters" (naaaah, I said it again...) and find the one
                        you need. Best, Pippo


                        --- In bolger@y..., djost@m... wrote:
                        > Col,
                        > I have been unable to find the link. Does anyone know it?
                        > Davdi Jost
                        > > Dave,
                        > > There is a small essay and photos on an alternative rudder
                        > > setup by Larry BUCK in CSD's "Common Sense News" volume 12 issue
                        5 on
                        > > page 3. I don't have the link on hand but its not hard to find.
                        > >
                        > > Regards,
                        > >
                        > > Col Mooney
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                      • vcgraphics@theriver.com
                        David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it. This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder with bushings turned by lath from an old
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 4, 2001
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                          David, I hope you found the file where Pippo left it.

                          This rudder mounting mod has bolts held in the hull and rudder
                          with bushings turned by lath from an old bronze drive shaft.

                          The fancy approach is probably not needed. The bolts could be
                          held by the Gougeon bros method of drilling a loose fit hole for
                          the threaded fastening, and epoxying the fasteners, well coated
                          with release agent, into the holes. The Gougeons do this with
                          winch mountings, so it must be plenty strong, at least with a
                          sideways force. The release agent allows the hardware to be
                          threaded in and out when need be. Without the bronze bushings
                          fabrication becomes simple.

                          Vance

                          --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                          wrote:
                          > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                          dreaded
                          > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
                        • djost@ma.ultranet.com
                          Vance and Pippo, Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files! This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small modifictions. 1.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 5, 2001
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                            Vance and Pippo,
                            Thank you for pointing me in the right direction to the files!
                            This is the approach that I have chosen with a couple of small
                            modifictions.

                            1. I have ordered a 14" piece of 2"X 1/4" bronze plate to be rabbeted
                            into the keel (full width side to side) and will tap it for (6) 3" #10
                            silicon bronze screws set in epoxy with release agent (wax) on the
                            screws.

                            2. I was planning on using a bronze rod inserted into the post, but I
                            can see that a suitable bronze bolt may be a lot simpler if set in the
                            epoxy bushing! I may build a test piece to see how difficult this may
                            be.

                            3. a bronze washer epoxied on the rudder will serve as a bearing
                            surface. I still have a can of WEST graphite so will probably coat
                            both surfaces with it since it is easy to redo when it wears. It also
                            will help with the pivot.


                            Many thanks for the help.
                            David Jost
                            >
                            > Vance
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@y..., "Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco" <pippobianco@t...>
                            > wrote:
                            > > David, I posted the whole bunch of CSD (aaaarghhh, I told the
                            > dreaded
                            > > name, shame on me...) newsletters in the files,
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